he doesn't give the rest of them a heads up, he walks in at the same time Ross which implies he is already with Ross and that he's separated himself from the rest of the team, and he has in fact made up his mind without discussion what the team should decide
Yeah, what gets me is still that the Avengers were given three days to sign, and Tony clearly knew in advance. Possibly long in advance. The way that entire scene was framed, with Tony even sitting apart from the others, is so telling. And he aligned himself with the guy who called Bruce and Thor nukes, which, WTF, Tony. I wonder if he was trying to strongarm the rest of them into signing. If so, that backfired spectacularly.
Personally I absolutely agree with the need for oversight, but that three-day time frame rang so many alarm bells
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Oh, thank you, I knew they'd said how long it was before the signing and that I thought it was really short, but I couldn't remember the exact timeframe. But yes, lots of alarm bells because they are being completely railroaded, and it is all stick and no carrot.
And Tony has put himself with the railroaders. He is tacitly going "you are on your own, I'm already gone". I'm not sure if it was a deliberate tactic so much as an indication of... argh, can't quite find the words. Tony's lack of concern for the team as an entity? I feel like he is acting purely as a free agent, not as a member of the group at all. I don't remember them making it clear how far in advance Tony knew about the Accords, but that is not a good way to deal with it if he was just someone who is in a team of supposed peers, let alone people who are meant to be his friends. He doesn't even warn Rhodey what's coming!
he aligned himself with the guy who called Bruce and Thor nukes, which, WTF, TonyMm-hmm. It makes me think this is probably a large Doylist
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Yeah, and it makes so very little sense. Because if he wants those Accords, shouldn't he want the others to sign them? And yet he makes no effort to convince them - he separates himself from them even before the Accords are presented to them. He makes gestures towards reaching out, but the time for trying would have been before things got to that point, and he just doesn't. It's the complete opposite of Natasha's "the most important part is staying together" ...
There's nothing explicitly stating whether or not Tony knew in advance (much less how much in advance), but I don't see how else you could read his behaviour during the presentation. He's made up his mind. And he hasn't bothered to tell anyone else, leaving that to Ross. makes me think this is probably a large Doylist reason why Bruce went AWOL at the end of AoU
Yes! I don't think it could have worked at all with Bruce. In AoU Bruce went along with Tony, but he wouldn't have gone along here, and I think Tony would have been
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Doh, and I got so caught up with the whole rift thing again I forgot to say I agree with you about the Spidey scene dropping the momentum. It did feel out of place, didn't it? I would say it is manipulation by Tony more than strongarming, but either way it strikes me as pretty darn dodgy considering how young Peter is (is he even 18? He still seemed to be in high school) and I definitely think he was relying more on appealing to the cool factor of getting to fight alongside Iron Man than actually explaining to Peter what was going on. Which is completely irresponsible, even if we assume that Tony believes that nobody on either side is going to be fighting to kill things can still go south (as it did with Rhodey) - and at that point they still think Bucky did attack the UN and they just experienced him going Winter Soldier in the escape, so he's signing on a high school kid to potentially go up against a world class assassin. Just... Tony, what are you doing?!
While I totally agree with everything you said, the #2 argument is the one that really lines up with what was bothering me about the Accords. They are clearly meant to control, instead of get less people killed in the future.
Yeah, it wasn't something I managed to sort out in my head in the immediate aftermath of seeing the film, but the way the authorities handle presenting the Accords to the Avengers is giant red flags all over the place. They're being treated as antagonists - the plan is kept from them until they are given a fait accompli. I mean, how long does it take to put together something that 117 countries all agree on? That is not a short process, and if it really was just about finding ways to protect people from collateral damage, it is surely better to have the Avengers onside and involved from the start. And it isn't hard to think of more diplomatic ways to persuade them to sign up than someone marching in and going "we blame you for all these deaths, you've got three days to sign this or else"!
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Yeah, what gets me is still that the Avengers were given three days to sign, and Tony clearly knew in advance. Possibly long in advance. The way that entire scene was framed, with Tony even sitting apart from the others, is so telling. And he aligned himself with the guy who called Bruce and Thor nukes, which, WTF, Tony. I wonder if he was trying to strongarm the rest of them into signing. If so, that backfired spectacularly.
Personally I absolutely agree with the need for oversight, but that three-day time frame rang so many alarm bells ( ... )
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And Tony has put himself with the railroaders. He is tacitly going "you are on your own, I'm already gone". I'm not sure if it was a deliberate tactic so much as an indication of... argh, can't quite find the words. Tony's lack of concern for the team as an entity? I feel like he is acting purely as a free agent, not as a member of the group at all. I don't remember them making it clear how far in advance Tony knew about the Accords, but that is not a good way to deal with it if he was just someone who is in a team of supposed peers, let alone people who are meant to be his friends. He doesn't even warn Rhodey what's coming!
he aligned himself with the guy who called Bruce and Thor nukes, which, WTF, TonyMm-hmm. It makes me think this is probably a large Doylist ( ... )
Reply
Yeah, and it makes so very little sense. Because if he wants those Accords, shouldn't he want the others to sign them? And yet he makes no effort to convince them - he separates himself from them even before the Accords are presented to them. He makes gestures towards reaching out, but the time for trying would have been before things got to that point, and he just doesn't. It's the complete opposite of Natasha's "the most important part is staying together" ...
There's nothing explicitly stating whether or not Tony knew in advance (much less how much in advance), but I don't see how else you could read his behaviour during the presentation. He's made up his mind. And he hasn't bothered to tell anyone else, leaving that to Ross.
makes me think this is probably a large Doylist reason why Bruce went AWOL at the end of AoU
Yes! I don't think it could have worked at all with Bruce. In AoU Bruce went along with Tony, but he wouldn't have gone along here, and I think Tony would have been ( ... )
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