It's about controlling your darkness
Okay, so fox1013 and I just flailed around a lot on gchat about the glory that is Jellicoe. There is too much to even sum up. So I am posting the whole of our flailery under the cut.
penmage: JELLICOE
fox1013: OMG I KNOW
penmage: I don't even know where to start
POSTMAN IN YASS
I just--on rereads--augh
You know?
fox1013: I feel like in a lot of ways, the first half of the book or so is really only there for the reread
penmage: Yes. For the first half of the book I thought it was a book about territory wars
fox1013: Because on first read I slogged through it and yet on the second read it was MAGICAL.
penmage: YES
it was only once I hit the second half that I realized it was really about discovery
and the ties that bind
and friendship and love
and past repeating present repeating future
fox1013: YES.
penmage: and discovering yourself
You know what I love?
that moment in the Prayer Tree, when Griggs is talking about how his mum is his memory, and he asks who will be his memory when she's gone and Santangelo says "I will. Phone me.” without missing a beat, and Raffy says "Me too."
fox1013: Yes!
penmage: THAT BROKE ME IN HALF
fox1013: And how- you know, that's what Hannah did too.
You know what I think broke me the most?
penmage: what?
for Jude, you mean?
fox1013: Yeah. Upon rereading, there's that scene where Narnie takes pills and Tate stays up with her all night.
penmage: YES--and Narnie promises Tate she'll do the same for her
fox1013: and Narnie says taht one day, if Tate needs her to etc., and Tate says "I'll hold you to it." WHEN I REALIZED THE FULL IMPACT OF THAT I SOBBED.
penmage: AUGH
And the fire
I didn't even realize till the reread what Jessa was saying from the beginning about her father and the tunnel and how all the stuff about the tunnel is just sort of slipped in there
interspersed throughout the book, the map that MIGHT have the tunnel map
fox1013: Yes! It's like it's all there just so at the end you can have that kind of "Oh, of COURSE" feeling
penmage: It makes me feel so full inside. You know, it felt like reading in a dream
fox1013: That is the perfect way to describe it.
penmage: I didn't even fully comprehend what had happened to Webb until the very end
And when Griggs leaves, and Taylor is crying, and Santangelo says "Why are you crying? We're going to know him forever.", It broke me in half
fox1013: ME TOO. It took til second readthrough to realize what had happened.
Also, it's a really little thing, but I love how the kids all make sure to hide the territory wars from the adults, when of COURSE Hannah knows.
penmage: Yes--Like at the beginning, when Ben says that Hannah asks him a million questions about it
fox1013: YES. And, ugh, how Hannah went out of her way to never be Taylor's mother because Taylor has a mother.
penmage: That broke me.
fox1013: And Taylor essentially naming herself!
penmage: She did name herself! It wasn't just Tate being a bad mother
fox1013: --Oh, man, I didn't put that part together til you juts said it
penmage: It breaks my heart that Tate became...well, what Taylor's mother became
fox1013: I can reconcile all the other characters with their adult selves. But Tate is just devastating
penmage: Fitz breaks my heart too
Oh, oh
and I didn't even think of it till right now, but Fitz shot himself with Taylor, because he couldn't forgive himself for killing Webb. Which essentially killed the five of them. And then Taylor was able to save his daughter, and repair the family that they had created
fox1013: Yes!
penmage: because of Fitz and Webb in the dream
fox1013: And Fitz shooting himsel led to Taylor befriending Griggs.
penmage: YES! Griggs not killing himself because Fitz did it makes me worried about the future of Taylor and Raffy and Santangelo and Griggs. I want them to have a happy ending. I don't want them to grow up into Tate and Narnie and Fitz and Jude
fox1013: I am choosing to believe that they essentially get the happy ending the older generation didn't get. That the generations average together to have something work.
penmage: Yes. It has to be. Because coming full circle means they have to face the mistakes of their past, and learn from them
fox1013: And I think that's what it is when the end has them all living in the house on Jellicoe Road- it's their ideal ending
penmage: That Webb dreamed of. Webb, who held them together, the way Taylor is holding them together now
fox1013: And the way that the house is, multiple times, compared to Noah's ark.
penmage: Like when she tells Hannah and Griggs that if the two of them don't build a bridge and get over it, she'll never forgive them
fox1013: to bring everyone together and keep them safe.
penmage: YES! I also love the little things--the interactions between the characters, the way they feel real, like when Raffy and Taylor try to steal Santangelo's car
and Santangelo gets all wounded and takes out his handkerchief.
fox1013: I can't decide if I love or hate the way that I can't share any individual quote with anyone, because they only make sense in context. I mean, I love it, but I hate that other people can't love it as much vicariously.
penmage: I know what you mean. The scene with Griggs in the Prayer Tree, with Santangelo as his memory--I want to quote that to everyone I know, but it will only seem sappy out of context
fox1013: And that is why I want people to read the book!
penmage: And there's no use explaining any of it, because even explaining doesn't make sense out of context. The context is the book, not the plot, just the words and feelings and characters
fox1013: Part of me wants to register jellicoe_road as an LJ comm
penmage: It would have two members--you and me
fox1013: just to hash all of this out
penmage: do it!
fox1013: I am trying to remember why this is a bad idea and it's not working.
penmage: Maybe we can find more people to hash this out with
fox1013: ...You are a terrible influence. Which I enjoy.
penmage: I do my best!
I love it when Taylor starts to realize that she loves the kids in her house--the karaoke machine bit
fox1013: The KARAOKE scene
penmage: and the karaoke songs
fox1013: hee, yes.
penmage: and when the Darling House year sevens are captured, and Jessa goes with Taylor to interrogate them, and there's lots of beaming all around. Just bits, just little things that make me love these characters SO MUCH
fox1013: I love how, at the very beginning, you kind of know Jessa will be important. She's the only kid who gets a name and everything
(well, like, a FOCAL name, but it never occurred to me she'd be tied in to the story.)
penmage: I kind of knew. I'm not sure when exactly, but long before it became apparent that Jessa belonged to Fitz, and that Hannah was Narnie
fox1013: Hannah as Narnie I figured out pretty early
penmage: I also realized at some point that Fitz was the Hermit kind of in the way that you don't want to realize something
I really really didn't want it to be true
I had this great creeping sense of dread
fox1013: I wanted so badly for Fitz to still be okay.
penmage: I wasn't sure, but when Santangelo's father told Taylor that Fitz was dead I was sure
penmage: Also, can we come back for one minute please to the POSTMAN IN YASS?
fox1013: YES OMG.
penmage: OMG OMG. On the reread, when Taylor talks about the kindness of the postman in Yass, I feel faint. I went back and tried to find every reference to the postman and every reference to the serial killer
penmage: And Raffy. After the fire when Raffy says it's the best night of her life, and Taylor vows to know her forever
fox1013: /sniffles
penmage: "If you close your eyes, you can control your own darkness"
fox1013: And how Jude and Santangelo's dad both wanted to go down there but they couldn't, because they'd been part of the story once, essentially
penmage: And how Webb wasn't able to control his own darkness down there
fox1013: and yet Narnie was.
penmage: There's a Jewish concept called tikkun olam
which means, fixing the world. Basically it's the idea that we're all here to fix the world, make it a better place than it was when we got here, redeem the mistakes of the previous generations, and the idea is, when enough tikkun olam is done, that's when the messiah comes. The messiah doesn't fix the world, he just is brought on when we've done the fixing ourselves. That's what this book feels like
fox1013: YES.
penmage: like a tikkun. Webb couldn't control his own darkness, but in the tikkun, Griggs could, and Santangelo could. And they controlled their own darkness to save Jessa and Chloe P, and instead of leading to the end of their group, instead it led to the reknitting of the family
fox1013: Yes! Also, the way Jessa knew the entire time Taylor would save her...Fitz and Webb all over again. But with a happy ending.
penmage: And the way it wasn't just the second generation redeeming the mistakes of the first. Jessa and Chloe P. survived because of what Fitz had told Jessa, and Taylor found them because of what Webb and Fitz told her. Even Griggs' father redeemed himself, by saving them from the bloody postman in Yass
fox1013: YES. He saved them from being killed! And I especially like that in the context of Sam, where we do get to see one kid for whom mistakes of the parent DO destroy everything.
penmage: And Taylor needs to tell him that sometimes the mistakes of the parents don't doom the child. she needs him to remember it. I believe that Taylor's generation will have a happy ending, because not only do they have themselves working towards it, but they have the first generation as well
fox1013: YES.
penmage: Helping them through their trouble spots with dreams--dreams and memories and love. And now that they've made it through the trouble spots--if you recall, Taylor commented that she was older than her father was when he died--now that Webb and Fitz and Griggs' father have helped them past that critical timethat could have destroyed them--and did destroy the first generation
fox1013: yes!
penmage: Now they're going to make it. They're going to be okay. And wow, I just wrote another diatribe, didn't I.
fox1013: Yes. And it is AWESOME. You are the first person who's read it and discussed it with me.
penmage: I am so glad you read it, because otherwise I don't know what I'd do with myself right now. I don't know how to rave about this book to someone who hasn't read it.
fox1013: Hee, EXACTLY.
penmage: I don't even know where to begin. Not with the plot, which is so not the point
fox1013: I maintain this s the kind of book that requires at least two reads.'
penmage: At least. You don't pick up any of the nuances of the first 200 pages on the first go. You NEED to go back and reread them to understand how wonderful they are
fox1013: EXACTLY. Because you're trying to follow the territory wars, which don't even make sense on first read because you don't have a mental picture of the geography
penmage: Yes. You think the book has a straightforward plot, and it's about territory wars, which again--SO not the point at all
fox1013: But on the reread it makes so much more sense! Like how Raffy was devastated that the school had lost the Prayer Tree when Taylor ran away
penmage: Yes! And how brilliant it is. Because it's not just Raffy being sentimental, but the Prayer Tree has strategic value as well
fox1013: And it fits with Raffy believing in Taylor- that tree and Taylor are the two best symbols of the five in the book.
penmage: Yes. And also, that moment in the Club House, when Taylor wants to scream at everyone in the room, and tell them that the territory wars were started as a game, because they loved each other. The whole thing, all of it. The territory wars are a stand-in for their love
fox1013: Yes! And the way the rules for the territory wars were all based on how they teased each other and interacted ANYWAY.
penmage: YES! Like the rule about House leaders fraternizing, so when Taylor and Raffy and Griggs and Santangelo, (not to mention Ben and Anson Choi and the Mullet Brothers) stopped being at each other's throats and started loving each other--when the wars fell away into friendship and the sort of lifelong family you create for yourself--that brings everything full circle again
fox1013: yes! Also- you know, it was very much a side plot, but I LOVE THE BAND.
penmage: ME TOO!
fox1013: And the way it wasn't particularly good but it was made of all three groups and THEY STARTED A SUCKY BAND TOGETHER.
penmage: The way Ben and Anson Choi and the Mullet Brothers (did we ever learn their names?) could never stay focused on the territory wars
fox1013: No! Which I kind of love.
penmage: They kept getting distracted by their own sucky band, and the way at the very end, Taylor can tell that they like each other a hell of a lot
fox1013: And that they had that entire relationship that developed completely separate from Taylor, but it still feels organic
penmage: Yes! And the moment when Griggs saw Ben play, and told him that if he had known, he would never have gone after the fingers
fox1013: And apologized for hurting his fingers! yes! Oh, and I also really loved the scene in the jail.
penmage: Me too--when Griggs shows that he cares about Taylor, and helps her breathe
fox1013: Yes! and then it takes on even more significance when you factor in how Santangelo's dad was the one who helped them when Webb first went missing...
penmage: yes!
fox1013: I just want to draw hearts around this entire book.
penmage: and was he also the ambulence driver at the accident?
fox1013: I thought the ambulance driver was someone else who was also there at the end to help with Jessa and Chloe P. I may be misremembering, though.
penmage I really didn't fully understand what happened to Webb till the very end, when Taylor says it point blank to Hannah. Not because it wasn't clear, but because I didn't want it to be true.
fox1013: YES! Me too. I was completely in willful denial.
penmage: because it would just be too heartbreaking
fox1013: On first read I was convinced that even though Fitz thought he had shot Webb, it had really just been a bird, like he had hoped.
penmage: Me too. It was just so heartbreaking. Augh, Fitz. Because by the time you figure it out, you realize what the consequences of that moment were. All of them
fox1013: yes
penmage: By killing Webb, Fitz killed the group--which was, in effect, his only family
fox1013: YES.
penmage: The only people who really cared for him. Which led him to believe that he was poison when his wife died, he thought he killed the group, not to mention what became of Tate.
fox1013: The one scene from the earlier generation I'm trying to sort out is when Narnie rescues Webb from the tunnel because he lost faith. Was it just that the idea of having a baby renewed his faith? Or was there something else in there that I was missing?
penmage: I didn't read it that way at all. I thought it was much simpler than that. Webb had been controlling his own darkness, and therefore, the darkness of the group, ever since the accident.
--I think there's a lot in this book about controlling your own darkness
fox1013: Oh, definitely. Which I really loved as its overall theme.
penmage: In a way, Narnie controlled Webb's darkness when she sat in the same spot for four hours so he wouldn't see his mother's headless body.
fox1013: I think I'm just wondering why Webb lost control of his darkness, but seemed to have it again that last day before he got killed.
OH MY GOD THAT BROKE ME When we learn that Narnie was so much stronger than anyone thought.
penmage: Webb had been controlling his own darkness, and therefore held back the devil for all of them. But down in the tunnel, where the devil was--that simple fact of nature forced him to confront the darkness he had been facing down all these years and it got the better of him. So Narnie, who had kept him from seeing his dead mother--had to go in and get him, and bring him back. And she did. In all the senses of the word.
fox1013: ...Oh, man. Okay, that's the explanation I'm going with.
JUST DISCUSSING THIS IS MAKING ME CRY.
penmage: There definitely could be more going on there than I just said. That's just the way I got it on my first read.
11:29 PM penmage: Okay. I love how many lines from the first gen echo in the second gen, but not exactly. Not word for word, because that would be twee. No, it's just the same thoughts, the same ideas
fox1013: YES. It just fits. Like Hannah's father took 132 minutes to die and Taylor's mother took 17 years.
penmage: OH OH OH. And THE LAST LINE OF THE BOOK
"I wonder," Hannah says
ECHOING
"Wonder dies"
fox1013: YES.
penmage: that broke me.
fox1013: The "I wonder"/"wonder dies" matches up with how when Narnie smiles it's like a revelation
penmage: YES YES YES
fox1013: that ending is gorgeous and if you haven't read the entire book it probably doesn't make sense at ALL
penmage: I KNOW. IT'S ALL SO PERFECT. I CAN'T STOP THINKING IN CAPS and it's all so frustrating!
fox1013: THAT IS WHAT THIS BOOK DOES.
penmage: YES. It's so frustrating, because I want to rave about it, but there is no way to rave about it with any kind of specifics.
fox1013: YES.
penmage: NONE
fox1013: You know what it reminds me of, kind of?
penmage: ?
fox1013: Trying to explain why Westing Game is awesome without spoiling anything
penmage: mm yes
fox1013: any awesome you explain takes away part of the magic
penmage: I like it when I can give someone a quick blurby reason why a book is awesome, some nice keywords to ping their awesome filters. With this book, all I can do is flail around, and say "it's awesome! I can't tell you why! But it is! Read it! trust me on this one! Eleventyone!"
fox1013: EXACTLY.
penmage: WHAT BRINGS THEM TOGETHER
What makes them stop fighting and start caring for each other for real--
IT'S THE PRAYER TREE
It's the original five.
It's Taylor caring about the carvings, and Griggs threatening to destroy them, and Taylor caring, CARING too much, even though she hates caring. And Griggs actually knowing that this is something sacred, and recognizing what will be sacred to Taylor.
The original five brought them together.
And this bit is from 2/1:
penmage:RIGHT-So the turning point of EVERYTHING was when Griggs chased them into the Prayer Tree, and then threatened to destroy the carvings, which made Taylor confront the fact that she really truly cares about something--even though she hates caring because caring makes her vulnerable
fox1013: Okay, that makes me really happy. The thing she cares about is Hannah!
penmage:And it did-because caring too much and too hard about the Prayer Tree carvings made her come out of the tree and expose herself to capture by Griggs. And also, Griggs, at the same time, realized what would make Taylor care. And he also realized that it was too important and too great to destroy.
fox1013: Ugh, seriously. Little details like this make me so happy
penmage:When she accuses him of caring about nothing, and he tells her not to underestimate what he cares about-and it's that moment-when she punches him, and then they fall on the ground together-and then Ben offers Anson Choi coffee and muffins-that's when the truce starts. That's when the book stops pretending to be about territory wars and starts to truly be about friendship. That's when it gets wonderful. Which means-IT WAS THE ORIGINAL FIVE THAT BROUGHT THEM TOGETHER IN THE FIRST PLACE.
fox1013: THAT IS SO AWESOME
penmage:I KNOW RIGHT
The Prayer Tree isn't just important emotionally, religiously and strategically-it's also a representation of the original five. They carved their hopes and dreams on it, and that's what, finally, binds them all together-Taylor and Griggs and Raffy and Santangelo, and Ben and Anson Choi and the Mullets-all of them.
I LOVE THIS BOOK.
fox1013: THE MORE I TALK ABOUT IT THE MORE I LOVE IT
penmage:I KNOW ME TOO.
Also
Also!
And this part is less subtext and more just text-but the part at the end, where Taylor tells Hannah that she needs Griggs to leave, so she can make sure that she can breathe without him, because she doesn't want to repeat and relive Tate's fate-THAT, right there, is the tikkun. What I was saying earlier about being afraid for them-because the original five were so golden and then they crashed and burned-I'm not afraid any more.
fox1013: YES. They're learning and changing and fixing things and ugh, I LOVE THEM SO MUCH.
penmage:THEY WILL BE OKAY. Because even though they love each other, and even though they are going to know each other for the rest of their lives, on the Jellicoe Road-they are not going to collapse if one of them goes away or dies. The rest of them will make it.
fox1013: They LEARNED THINGS FROM THE MISTAKES.
I think that's the other thing I love about this book. People make mistakes, but everyone genuinely learns from what's happened before.
penmage:YES
fox1013: So often the problem in books is that it feels like characters are just missing an obvious solution, and that's not the case with this one at all.
penmage:YES. I hate wilfull protagonist stupidity, where the protagonist misses something that's so obvs to the reader. It turns me off, no matter how good the book is.
fox1013: me too
penmage: They don't do that here AT ALL. They're learning and growing and changing, and the mistakes they make
fox1013: If anything the characters were smarter than I would have been.
which I appreciated.
penmage: (Like when Taylor gets convinced that the Brigadier is the serial killer) are ones I would have made too.
fox1013: yes, totally! It FITS.
penmage: JELLICOE
fox1013: OMG I KNOW
penmage: I don't even know where to start
POSTMAN IN YASS
I just--on rereads--augh
You know?
fox1013: I feel like in a lot of ways, the first half of the book or so is really only there for the reread
penmage: Yes. For the first half of the book I thought it was a book about territory wars
fox1013: Because on first read I slogged through it and yet on the second read it was MAGICAL.
penmage: YES
it was only once I hit the second half that I realized it was really about discovery
and the ties that bind
and friendship and love
and past repeating present repeating future
fox1013: YES.
penmage: and discovering yourself
You know what I love?
that moment in the Prayer Tree, when Griggs is talking about how his mum is his memory, and he asks who will be his memory when she's gone and Santangelo says "I will. Phone me.” without missing a beat, and Raffy says "Me too."
fox1013: Yes!
penmage: THAT BROKE ME IN HALF
fox1013: And how- you know, that's what Hannah did too.
You know what I think broke me the most?
penmage: what?
for Jude, you mean?
fox1013: Yeah. Upon rereading, there's that scene where Narnie takes pills and Tate stays up with her all night.
penmage: YES--and Narnie promises Tate she'll do the same for her
fox1013: and Narnie says taht one day, if Tate needs her to etc., and Tate says "I'll hold you to it." WHEN I REALIZED THE FULL IMPACT OF THAT I SOBBED.
penmage: AUGH
And the fire
I didn't even realize till the reread what Jessa was saying from the beginning about her father and the tunnel and how all the stuff about the tunnel is just sort of slipped in there
interspersed throughout the book, the map that MIGHT have the tunnel map
fox1013: Yes! It's like it's all there just so at the end you can have that kind of "Oh, of COURSE" feeling
penmage: It makes me feel so full inside. You know, it felt like reading in a dream
fox1013: That is the perfect way to describe it.
penmage: I didn't even fully comprehend what had happened to Webb until the very end
And when Griggs leaves, and Taylor is crying, and Santangelo says "Why are you crying? We're going to know him forever.", It broke me in half
fox1013: ME TOO. It took til second readthrough to realize what had happened.
Also, it's a really little thing, but I love how the kids all make sure to hide the territory wars from the adults, when of COURSE Hannah knows.
penmage: Yes--Like at the beginning, when Ben says that Hannah asks him a million questions about it
fox1013: YES. And, ugh, how Hannah went out of her way to never be Taylor's mother because Taylor has a mother.
penmage: That broke me.
fox1013: And Taylor essentially naming herself!
penmage: She did name herself! It wasn't just Tate being a bad mother
fox1013: --Oh, man, I didn't put that part together til you juts said it
penmage: It breaks my heart that Tate became...well, what Taylor's mother became
fox1013: I can reconcile all the other characters with their adult selves. But Tate is just devastating
penmage: Fitz breaks my heart too
Oh, oh
and I didn't even think of it till right now, but Fitz shot himself with Taylor, because he couldn't forgive himself for killing Webb. Which essentially killed the five of them. And then Taylor was able to save his daughter, and repair the family that they had created
fox1013: Yes!
penmage: because of Fitz and Webb in the dream
fox1013: And Fitz shooting himsel led to Taylor befriending Griggs.
penmage: YES! Griggs not killing himself because Fitz did it makes me worried about the future of Taylor and Raffy and Santangelo and Griggs. I want them to have a happy ending. I don't want them to grow up into Tate and Narnie and Fitz and Jude
fox1013: I am choosing to believe that they essentially get the happy ending the older generation didn't get. That the generations average together to have something work.
penmage: Yes. It has to be. Because coming full circle means they have to face the mistakes of their past, and learn from them
fox1013: And I think that's what it is when the end has them all living in the house on Jellicoe Road- it's their ideal ending
penmage: That Webb dreamed of. Webb, who held them together, the way Taylor is holding them together now
fox1013: And the way that the house is, multiple times, compared to Noah's ark.
penmage: Like when she tells Hannah and Griggs that if the two of them don't build a bridge and get over it, she'll never forgive them
fox1013: to bring everyone together and keep them safe.
penmage: YES! I also love the little things--the interactions between the characters, the way they feel real, like when Raffy and Taylor try to steal Santangelo's car
and Santangelo gets all wounded and takes out his handkerchief.
fox1013: I can't decide if I love or hate the way that I can't share any individual quote with anyone, because they only make sense in context. I mean, I love it, but I hate that other people can't love it as much vicariously.
penmage: I know what you mean. The scene with Griggs in the Prayer Tree, with Santangelo as his memory--I want to quote that to everyone I know, but it will only seem sappy out of context
fox1013: And that is why I want people to read the book!
penmage: And there's no use explaining any of it, because even explaining doesn't make sense out of context. The context is the book, not the plot, just the words and feelings and characters
fox1013: Part of me wants to register jellicoe_road as an LJ comm
penmage: It would have two members--you and me
fox1013: just to hash all of this out
penmage: do it!
fox1013: I am trying to remember why this is a bad idea and it's not working.
penmage: Maybe we can find more people to hash this out with
fox1013: ...You are a terrible influence. Which I enjoy.
penmage: I do my best!
I love it when Taylor starts to realize that she loves the kids in her house--the karaoke machine bit
fox1013: The KARAOKE scene
penmage: and the karaoke songs
fox1013: hee, yes.
penmage: and when the Darling House year sevens are captured, and Jessa goes with Taylor to interrogate them, and there's lots of beaming all around. Just bits, just little things that make me love these characters SO MUCH
fox1013: I love how, at the very beginning, you kind of know Jessa will be important. She's the only kid who gets a name and everything
(well, like, a FOCAL name, but it never occurred to me she'd be tied in to the story.)
penmage: I kind of knew. I'm not sure when exactly, but long before it became apparent that Jessa belonged to Fitz, and that Hannah was Narnie
fox1013: Hannah as Narnie I figured out pretty early
penmage: I also realized at some point that Fitz was the Hermit kind of in the way that you don't want to realize something
I really really didn't want it to be true
I had this great creeping sense of dread
fox1013: I wanted so badly for Fitz to still be okay.
penmage: I wasn't sure, but when Santangelo's father told Taylor that Fitz was dead I was sure
penmage: Also, can we come back for one minute please to the POSTMAN IN YASS?
fox1013: YES OMG.
penmage: OMG OMG. On the reread, when Taylor talks about the kindness of the postman in Yass, I feel faint. I went back and tried to find every reference to the postman and every reference to the serial killer
penmage: And Raffy. After the fire when Raffy says it's the best night of her life, and Taylor vows to know her forever
fox1013: /sniffles
penmage: "If you close your eyes, you can control your own darkness"
fox1013: And how Jude and Santangelo's dad both wanted to go down there but they couldn't, because they'd been part of the story once, essentially
penmage: And how Webb wasn't able to control his own darkness down there
fox1013: and yet Narnie was.
penmage: There's a Jewish concept called tikkun olam
which means, fixing the world. Basically it's the idea that we're all here to fix the world, make it a better place than it was when we got here, redeem the mistakes of the previous generations, and the idea is, when enough tikkun olam is done, that's when the messiah comes. The messiah doesn't fix the world, he just is brought on when we've done the fixing ourselves. That's what this book feels like
fox1013: YES.
penmage: like a tikkun. Webb couldn't control his own darkness, but in the tikkun, Griggs could, and Santangelo could. And they controlled their own darkness to save Jessa and Chloe P, and instead of leading to the end of their group, instead it led to the reknitting of the family
fox1013: Yes! Also, the way Jessa knew the entire time Taylor would save her...Fitz and Webb all over again. But with a happy ending.
penmage: And the way it wasn't just the second generation redeeming the mistakes of the first. Jessa and Chloe P. survived because of what Fitz had told Jessa, and Taylor found them because of what Webb and Fitz told her. Even Griggs' father redeemed himself, by saving them from the bloody postman in Yass
fox1013: YES. He saved them from being killed! And I especially like that in the context of Sam, where we do get to see one kid for whom mistakes of the parent DO destroy everything.
penmage: And Taylor needs to tell him that sometimes the mistakes of the parents don't doom the child. she needs him to remember it. I believe that Taylor's generation will have a happy ending, because not only do they have themselves working towards it, but they have the first generation as well
fox1013: YES.
penmage: Helping them through their trouble spots with dreams--dreams and memories and love. And now that they've made it through the trouble spots--if you recall, Taylor commented that she was older than her father was when he died--now that Webb and Fitz and Griggs' father have helped them past that critical timethat could have destroyed them--and did destroy the first generation
fox1013: yes!
penmage: Now they're going to make it. They're going to be okay. And wow, I just wrote another diatribe, didn't I.
fox1013: Yes. And it is AWESOME. You are the first person who's read it and discussed it with me.
penmage: I am so glad you read it, because otherwise I don't know what I'd do with myself right now. I don't know how to rave about this book to someone who hasn't read it.
fox1013: Hee, EXACTLY.
penmage: I don't even know where to begin. Not with the plot, which is so not the point
fox1013: I maintain this s the kind of book that requires at least two reads.'
penmage: At least. You don't pick up any of the nuances of the first 200 pages on the first go. You NEED to go back and reread them to understand how wonderful they are
fox1013: EXACTLY. Because you're trying to follow the territory wars, which don't even make sense on first read because you don't have a mental picture of the geography
penmage: Yes. You think the book has a straightforward plot, and it's about territory wars, which again--SO not the point at all
fox1013: But on the reread it makes so much more sense! Like how Raffy was devastated that the school had lost the Prayer Tree when Taylor ran away
penmage: Yes! And how brilliant it is. Because it's not just Raffy being sentimental, but the Prayer Tree has strategic value as well
fox1013: And it fits with Raffy believing in Taylor- that tree and Taylor are the two best symbols of the five in the book.
penmage: Yes. And also, that moment in the Club House, when Taylor wants to scream at everyone in the room, and tell them that the territory wars were started as a game, because they loved each other. The whole thing, all of it. The territory wars are a stand-in for their love
fox1013: Yes! And the way the rules for the territory wars were all based on how they teased each other and interacted ANYWAY.
penmage: YES! Like the rule about House leaders fraternizing, so when Taylor and Raffy and Griggs and Santangelo, (not to mention Ben and Anson Choi and the Mullet Brothers) stopped being at each other's throats and started loving each other--when the wars fell away into friendship and the sort of lifelong family you create for yourself--that brings everything full circle again
fox1013: yes! Also- you know, it was very much a side plot, but I LOVE THE BAND.
penmage: ME TOO!
fox1013: And the way it wasn't particularly good but it was made of all three groups and THEY STARTED A SUCKY BAND TOGETHER.
penmage: The way Ben and Anson Choi and the Mullet Brothers (did we ever learn their names?) could never stay focused on the territory wars
fox1013: No! Which I kind of love.
penmage: They kept getting distracted by their own sucky band, and the way at the very end, Taylor can tell that they like each other a hell of a lot
fox1013: And that they had that entire relationship that developed completely separate from Taylor, but it still feels organic
penmage: Yes! And the moment when Griggs saw Ben play, and told him that if he had known, he would never have gone after the fingers
fox1013: And apologized for hurting his fingers! yes! Oh, and I also really loved the scene in the jail.
penmage: Me too--when Griggs shows that he cares about Taylor, and helps her breathe
fox1013: Yes! and then it takes on even more significance when you factor in how Santangelo's dad was the one who helped them when Webb first went missing...
penmage: yes!
fox1013: I just want to draw hearts around this entire book.
penmage: and was he also the ambulence driver at the accident?
fox1013: I thought the ambulance driver was someone else who was also there at the end to help with Jessa and Chloe P. I may be misremembering, though.
penmage I really didn't fully understand what happened to Webb till the very end, when Taylor says it point blank to Hannah. Not because it wasn't clear, but because I didn't want it to be true.
fox1013: YES! Me too. I was completely in willful denial.
penmage: because it would just be too heartbreaking
fox1013: On first read I was convinced that even though Fitz thought he had shot Webb, it had really just been a bird, like he had hoped.
penmage: Me too. It was just so heartbreaking. Augh, Fitz. Because by the time you figure it out, you realize what the consequences of that moment were. All of them
fox1013: yes
penmage: By killing Webb, Fitz killed the group--which was, in effect, his only family
fox1013: YES.
penmage: The only people who really cared for him. Which led him to believe that he was poison when his wife died, he thought he killed the group, not to mention what became of Tate.
fox1013: The one scene from the earlier generation I'm trying to sort out is when Narnie rescues Webb from the tunnel because he lost faith. Was it just that the idea of having a baby renewed his faith? Or was there something else in there that I was missing?
penmage: I didn't read it that way at all. I thought it was much simpler than that. Webb had been controlling his own darkness, and therefore, the darkness of the group, ever since the accident.
--I think there's a lot in this book about controlling your own darkness
fox1013: Oh, definitely. Which I really loved as its overall theme.
penmage: In a way, Narnie controlled Webb's darkness when she sat in the same spot for four hours so he wouldn't see his mother's headless body.
fox1013: I think I'm just wondering why Webb lost control of his darkness, but seemed to have it again that last day before he got killed.
OH MY GOD THAT BROKE ME When we learn that Narnie was so much stronger than anyone thought.
penmage: Webb had been controlling his own darkness, and therefore held back the devil for all of them. But down in the tunnel, where the devil was--that simple fact of nature forced him to confront the darkness he had been facing down all these years and it got the better of him. So Narnie, who had kept him from seeing his dead mother--had to go in and get him, and bring him back. And she did. In all the senses of the word.
fox1013: ...Oh, man. Okay, that's the explanation I'm going with.
JUST DISCUSSING THIS IS MAKING ME CRY.
penmage: There definitely could be more going on there than I just said. That's just the way I got it on my first read.
11:29 PM penmage: Okay. I love how many lines from the first gen echo in the second gen, but not exactly. Not word for word, because that would be twee. No, it's just the same thoughts, the same ideas
fox1013: YES. It just fits. Like Hannah's father took 132 minutes to die and Taylor's mother took 17 years.
penmage: OH OH OH. And THE LAST LINE OF THE BOOK
"I wonder," Hannah says
ECHOING
"Wonder dies"
fox1013: YES.
penmage: that broke me.
fox1013: The "I wonder"/"wonder dies" matches up with how when Narnie smiles it's like a revelation
penmage: YES YES YES
fox1013: that ending is gorgeous and if you haven't read the entire book it probably doesn't make sense at ALL
penmage: I KNOW. IT'S ALL SO PERFECT. I CAN'T STOP THINKING IN CAPS and it's all so frustrating!
fox1013: THAT IS WHAT THIS BOOK DOES.
penmage: YES. It's so frustrating, because I want to rave about it, but there is no way to rave about it with any kind of specifics.
fox1013: YES.
penmage: NONE
fox1013: You know what it reminds me of, kind of?
penmage: ?
fox1013: Trying to explain why Westing Game is awesome without spoiling anything
penmage: mm yes
fox1013: any awesome you explain takes away part of the magic
penmage: I like it when I can give someone a quick blurby reason why a book is awesome, some nice keywords to ping their awesome filters. With this book, all I can do is flail around, and say "it's awesome! I can't tell you why! But it is! Read it! trust me on this one! Eleventyone!"
fox1013: EXACTLY.
penmage: WHAT BRINGS THEM TOGETHER
What makes them stop fighting and start caring for each other for real--
IT'S THE PRAYER TREE
It's the original five.
It's Taylor caring about the carvings, and Griggs threatening to destroy them, and Taylor caring, CARING too much, even though she hates caring. And Griggs actually knowing that this is something sacred, and recognizing what will be sacred to Taylor.
The original five brought them together.
And this bit is from 2/1:
penmage:RIGHT-So the turning point of EVERYTHING was when Griggs chased them into the Prayer Tree, and then threatened to destroy the carvings, which made Taylor confront the fact that she really truly cares about something--even though she hates caring because caring makes her vulnerable
fox1013: Okay, that makes me really happy. The thing she cares about is Hannah!
penmage:And it did-because caring too much and too hard about the Prayer Tree carvings made her come out of the tree and expose herself to capture by Griggs. And also, Griggs, at the same time, realized what would make Taylor care. And he also realized that it was too important and too great to destroy.
fox1013: Ugh, seriously. Little details like this make me so happy
penmage:When she accuses him of caring about nothing, and he tells her not to underestimate what he cares about-and it's that moment-when she punches him, and then they fall on the ground together-and then Ben offers Anson Choi coffee and muffins-that's when the truce starts. That's when the book stops pretending to be about territory wars and starts to truly be about friendship. That's when it gets wonderful. Which means-IT WAS THE ORIGINAL FIVE THAT BROUGHT THEM TOGETHER IN THE FIRST PLACE.
fox1013: THAT IS SO AWESOME
penmage:I KNOW RIGHT
The Prayer Tree isn't just important emotionally, religiously and strategically-it's also a representation of the original five. They carved their hopes and dreams on it, and that's what, finally, binds them all together-Taylor and Griggs and Raffy and Santangelo, and Ben and Anson Choi and the Mullets-all of them.
I LOVE THIS BOOK.
fox1013: THE MORE I TALK ABOUT IT THE MORE I LOVE IT
penmage:I KNOW ME TOO.
Also
Also!
And this part is less subtext and more just text-but the part at the end, where Taylor tells Hannah that she needs Griggs to leave, so she can make sure that she can breathe without him, because she doesn't want to repeat and relive Tate's fate-THAT, right there, is the tikkun. What I was saying earlier about being afraid for them-because the original five were so golden and then they crashed and burned-I'm not afraid any more.
fox1013: YES. They're learning and changing and fixing things and ugh, I LOVE THEM SO MUCH.
penmage:THEY WILL BE OKAY. Because even though they love each other, and even though they are going to know each other for the rest of their lives, on the Jellicoe Road-they are not going to collapse if one of them goes away or dies. The rest of them will make it.
fox1013: They LEARNED THINGS FROM THE MISTAKES.
I think that's the other thing I love about this book. People make mistakes, but everyone genuinely learns from what's happened before.
penmage:YES
fox1013: So often the problem in books is that it feels like characters are just missing an obvious solution, and that's not the case with this one at all.
penmage:YES. I hate wilfull protagonist stupidity, where the protagonist misses something that's so obvs to the reader. It turns me off, no matter how good the book is.
fox1013: me too
penmage: They don't do that here AT ALL. They're learning and growing and changing, and the mistakes they make
fox1013: If anything the characters were smarter than I would have been.
which I appreciated.
penmage: (Like when Taylor gets convinced that the Brigadier is the serial killer) are ones I would have made too.
fox1013: yes, totally! It FITS.