(no subject)
Okay, Gabe posted this in my journal and I thought it was too good to be buried beneath an old outdated post and I think everyone who has the time should read it and respond. Trust me, it seems long, but it's a steady, entertaining read, or at least I thought so, and isn't as long as it looks.
This is a cut and paste from another forum. I would link the site since it would be easier instead of cutting and pasting the whole thing here, but I realized they are private forums and people wouldn't be able to get in without signing up. This is just part of a debate between me and a friend I know online, as you can see we don't see eye-to-eye on politics. Please excuse the grammar/spelling mistakes that I just noticed when I was copying this.
Him:
**************
me personally i will vote for george bush. my only problem with him is he comes from a political family of career politicians and im not to fond of dynasties or nepotism. i wasnt gonna vote just because of apathy, but that kerry guy really scares me he doesnt stand for anything. well actually he does voice opinions on issues but they change on a day by day basis.
i mean bush was in the national guard for what 5 years? kerry was in vietnam for 4months then he faked an injury (if he didnt why wont he release his records? they made bush do the same) to go home and protest the war and get blowjobs from jane fonda. kerry got divorced and married teresa heinz for her money.
i'd rather have a god fearing gun toting coke snorting low iq having right wing cowboy in the whitehouse, then a UN pandering flip flopping golddigging left wing ultra PC pander to whoever i got to for votes sissy.
Me:
****************
Wow, some pics. Sadly thats the best argument I've heard this election year.
Instead of posting some pics how about something that people checking this thread can use to educate themselves. I'm definatly hijacking this thread Pen, sorry, but I won't fly it into a building, I promise.
Bush's Tax Cut:
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/debt0903.pdf
and
http://www.cbpp.org/2-3-04sfp.htm
and
http://www.cbpp.org/12-22-03health-pr.htm
and
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=34039
and
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002006779_williams17.html
This is a good read for anyone that got an extra $300 in their pocket and think that George Bush is the best thing since sliced bread. As you can see we are actually losing money in this deal but in a way that isn't obvious to those who don't bother to educate themselves.
Who's benefiting from the tax cut? The rich. The gap between rich and poor in this country is growing. The richest 12,000 families in America have more money than the poorest 20,000,000.
We live in a country of special intrests. Phillip Morris is coming up with public healthcare policy, Exxon is in charge of environmental policy, and Haliburton is coming up with our military policy. These large companies and the petty partisan politics of the Republicans and Democrats have turned the average American off of politics. Most people don't feel like wading through the tons of partisan bullshit to educate themselves on the issue, and Big Company wins.
Bush couldn't lead himself out of a paper bag. After 9/11 there was an outpouring of support and unity, here in the US and from the international community. Bush had an opportunity to forge and solidify alliances and lead the citizens of free nations all over the world into a new age of cooperation and prosperity. Instead, he managed to piss away all of the goodwill.
Remember the whole "Axis of Evil" speech? Before that Iran was making some very positive strides towards democracy. Women were getting more freedoms, the younger generation of Iranians were getting away from religious fanaticism and looking at the US as an example of the direction they wanted to move in. Iran should have been held up as an example of what Arab countries should be striving for, but instead Bush labled them as part of the Axis of Evil and set back the progress in Iran.
Let me pose this situation. Let's say your mother/brother/sister/daughter/son/whatever is a political activist. Lets say they are against the Bush administration. And for arguments sake, lets say they are extremely vocal about it. They start getting some press, the Bush administration starts to take notice. Instead of letting this get out of hand they are unjustly accused to have ties with a terrorist organiztion. Now they are arrested, they don't have the right to talk to an attourney, they are allowed to be held indefinatly without being convicted of any crime. What's worse is that the government doesn't even have to notify anyone. One day you just stop hearing from them and never know why.
Sound far fetched? Then go read the unfortunatly named "Patriot Act" that was passed shortly after 9/11. This act gives the government the right to do all of those things and more. It gives the government legal authority to deny a US citizen their constitutionally protected rights. The same rights the people are dying to protect, but they can't protect us from our own government. I'm not saying this is going on, but why even let the government have that kind of power? For safey? Well, I have my own opinions on that but I'll just answer it with a quote from someone who is one of the greatest (and original) Americans in history:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
George Bush is ruining this country and most people are either not educated enough or too blindly partisan to see it.
I'm not too excited about voting for Kerry, I have to be honest, but I'm going to anyway. I like to think of the US as a big company, and as a taxpaying citizen I am a shareholder. If I see the CEO of a company I am invested it running the company into the ground while him and the rest of the board of trustees benefit, I'm not going to sit by and let him do it. I'm going to try and find a new CEO. US citizens have a say in how the country is run in the same way a shareholder has a say in the way a company is run. Everyone living in the US has a vested intrest in what our government does and we need to get out and be heard.
If you read all this and think that Bush is still the greatest then thats fine, I won't be changing your mind. If you plan on voting please at least check out some of these links and get informed. Don't go vote for Bush "because I'm a Republican". Vote for him because you think hes the best choice to lead our country, and until you are throughly informed about his record and his policy you will never be able to say that he is without lying to yourself.
Sorry again for the hijack.
Him:
***************
to me jon kerry personifies all that is wrong with the world today pandering to special interest groups and trying so hard to not offend anyone that nothing actually gets done. im not going to vote for bush because im a republican im voting for george bush because he stands for something and he took a stand.
you think our international relations got pissed away? what about britain? oh and who doesnt like us france? has france ever done anything worthwhile well accept for mayonaise we'll give em that one. ill go out on a limb and say fuck europe. do we want to be more like them? what s wrong with ok they attack us we attack them back while the UN sits around and tries to figure out a peaceful solution.
can you honsestly tell me that the world is not a better place without saddam hussein? shit if 9/11 happened while bill clinton was in office and he took the same approach that george bush did i would be praising him right now.
the patriot act is kinda fucked up but look at michael moore he made a movie filled with half truths and accusations bad mouthing the president. is he in jail? hell the whole of the liberal media trashes bush on a nightly basis. what prison is dan rather in? i wanna send him a care package.
i mean i looked at all the pretty numbers you linked but that means very little to me i failed economics. but as far as im concerned my life (economically) has changed very little from the clinton years to the bush2 years. i mean if i took time i could find an assload of numbers that show how good a job george bush is doing. our country economically has been in a downward spiral for years. we keep clinging to our manufacturing jobs but the companies are moving to other countries for cheaper labor. and whose fault is that? the evil republicans? or is it the unions who keep asking for higher wages for employees which eventually force companies to get cheaper labor?
ok i better shut up now. not meant to rile you up break, i remember that football thread from about a year ago just a little friendly debate
Me:
****************
quote:
not meant to rile you up break
Don't worry, I don't mind intellegent debate.
quote:
to me jon kerry personifies all that is wrong with the world today pandering to special interest groups
Now THIS is funny. Let's see....
Bush passed legislation that would allow corporate polluters to police themeselves. The environmental protection was suggested but not required. Do you think a corporate polluter is going to spend money to help the environment?
VP Cheney used to be CEO of Haliburton who now has the largest government rebuilding contract in Iraq thanks to who? Seems like a huge conflict of interest to me.
Bush said the average American would receive about $1400 from his tax cuts. While that is true its very misleading. Here is an example:
Put Bill gates in a room with 10 homeless guys and they will have an average net worth of $2.74 billion.
The average tax cut for the bottom 60% of Americans was only $304, whereas the average tax cut for Americans making $1 million or more was $112,925.
Bush repealled the estate tax. Republicans demonized it by calling it the death tax and people scared people into supporting his decision. For those who dont know what the estate tax it is a tax on the worth of your estate when you die. Because of this the richest 4.500 estates recieved a tax cut equal to the poorest 142 million Americans did from his tax cut.
This isn't phantom money, and you dont have to have passed economics to understand this. When you give that much of a tax break to the rich it has to come from somewhere. It comes from your grandparents and parents social security. It comes from the social security I'll never see. It comes from environmental programs, education and after school programs, veterans programs, healthcare.
"Bush promised, "I came to this office to solve problems and not pass them on to future presidents and future generations." Yet as a direct consequence of his tax policy, over six years an American family of four will take on $52,000 more in its share of the national debt."
We are all paying for this tax cuts, the money in this country is trickling upwards, Bush is truely an anti-Robin Hood, stealing from the poor and middle class to give to the rich.
quote:
our country economically has been in a downward spiral for years
Yes it has, and some of the above are the reasons why. Economy is stimulated by the spending of money. Give a middle class family an extra $1,000 and they are going to spend it. That money goes to a company which profits and their stock rises. When their stock rises and demand for their product of service goes up they expand. Part of expanding is providing new jobs and investing that money into other companies to accomplish the expansion. Those companies in turn get more business and can hire more employees who in turn get a paycheck that they use to buy stuff and give more money to those same companies.
If you take that money from them instead they don't have it to spend. The company doesn't get that money and demand for their product decreases along with their stock. Employees are laid off which hurts the economy even more. The only people profiting from this are those who are getting the money directly, the very rich. And in the long run they will lose too because their assest and business will decline in wealth along with the rest of the economy.
As you can see Bush is pandering to the rich.
quote:
ill go out on a limb and say fuck europe. do we want to be more like them?
The problem with America today is that we ARE becoming more like Europe. The United States was started by a bunch of people who got fed up and said "fuck it" and came here. Now people just ignore the problem and by ignoring the problem they become part of it.
quote:
what s wrong with ok they attack us we attack them back while the UN sits around and tries to figure out a peaceful solution
There's nothing wrong with that, only one problem...IRAQ NEVER ATTACKED US. Not only did they not attack us but there is absolutly no connection between Al Queda and Iraq that can be proved. There are connections between them and other countries that CAN be proved, but we arent attacking them are we.
As far as sitting around looking for a peaceful solution is concerned, when did that become a BAD thing? Maybe instead of peacful protests Martin Luther King should have started a race war.
quote:
can you honsestly tell me that the world is not a better place without saddam hussein?
This isn't an issue because outside of the Baath party I dont think anyone would say the world isn't better without him. The problem with the "freeing the Iraqi people" argument that Republicans like to use is that there are tons of people around the world being oppressed. I do think they need help, but I guarantee you none of those people really care about that. Is Rush Limbaugh (a/k/a partisan puppet fucktard) up in arms trying to get the Bush administration to invade the Sudan? Thousands of Sudanese are being butchered by muslim militia being supported by the government yet no one seems to give a fuck. Free Iraq!
quote:
we keep clinging to our manufacturing jobs but the companies are moving to other countries for cheaper labor. and whose fault is that?
The government has the power to protect American jobs. How about heavily taxing foreign payroll? Nah, lets award these companies with insanely huge tax cuts instead.
quote:
or is it the unions who keep asking for higher wages for employees which eventually force companies to get cheaper labor?
I agree that many unions are corrupt, but do you honestly think they are the ones driving jobs overseas? As long as it's profitable to ship jobs overseas companies will do it. Having unions asking for higher wages is a convinient excuse. If shipping jobs overseas wasn't profitable companies wouldn't do it.
Another point about Kerry pandering; I do agree with you. Unfortunatly EVERY successful politician panders to one special interest group or another. Ever since laws were passed that deemed giving money to a candidate as "freedom of speech" all politicians are in someones pocket. They have to be to be successful because it's those special interest groups that are paying for their campaign. Without campaign finance reform this will always be true and the average citizen will be the one to suffer
This is a cut and paste from another forum. I would link the site since it would be easier instead of cutting and pasting the whole thing here, but I realized they are private forums and people wouldn't be able to get in without signing up. This is just part of a debate between me and a friend I know online, as you can see we don't see eye-to-eye on politics. Please excuse the grammar/spelling mistakes that I just noticed when I was copying this.
Him:
**************
me personally i will vote for george bush. my only problem with him is he comes from a political family of career politicians and im not to fond of dynasties or nepotism. i wasnt gonna vote just because of apathy, but that kerry guy really scares me he doesnt stand for anything. well actually he does voice opinions on issues but they change on a day by day basis.
i mean bush was in the national guard for what 5 years? kerry was in vietnam for 4months then he faked an injury (if he didnt why wont he release his records? they made bush do the same) to go home and protest the war and get blowjobs from jane fonda. kerry got divorced and married teresa heinz for her money.
i'd rather have a god fearing gun toting coke snorting low iq having right wing cowboy in the whitehouse, then a UN pandering flip flopping golddigging left wing ultra PC pander to whoever i got to for votes sissy.
Me:
****************
Wow, some pics. Sadly thats the best argument I've heard this election year.
Instead of posting some pics how about something that people checking this thread can use to educate themselves. I'm definatly hijacking this thread Pen, sorry, but I won't fly it into a building, I promise.
Bush's Tax Cut:
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/debt0903.pdf
and
http://www.cbpp.org/2-3-04sfp.htm
and
http://www.cbpp.org/12-22-03health-pr.htm
and
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=34039
and
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002006779_williams17.html
This is a good read for anyone that got an extra $300 in their pocket and think that George Bush is the best thing since sliced bread. As you can see we are actually losing money in this deal but in a way that isn't obvious to those who don't bother to educate themselves.
Who's benefiting from the tax cut? The rich. The gap between rich and poor in this country is growing. The richest 12,000 families in America have more money than the poorest 20,000,000.
We live in a country of special intrests. Phillip Morris is coming up with public healthcare policy, Exxon is in charge of environmental policy, and Haliburton is coming up with our military policy. These large companies and the petty partisan politics of the Republicans and Democrats have turned the average American off of politics. Most people don't feel like wading through the tons of partisan bullshit to educate themselves on the issue, and Big Company wins.
Bush couldn't lead himself out of a paper bag. After 9/11 there was an outpouring of support and unity, here in the US and from the international community. Bush had an opportunity to forge and solidify alliances and lead the citizens of free nations all over the world into a new age of cooperation and prosperity. Instead, he managed to piss away all of the goodwill.
Remember the whole "Axis of Evil" speech? Before that Iran was making some very positive strides towards democracy. Women were getting more freedoms, the younger generation of Iranians were getting away from religious fanaticism and looking at the US as an example of the direction they wanted to move in. Iran should have been held up as an example of what Arab countries should be striving for, but instead Bush labled them as part of the Axis of Evil and set back the progress in Iran.
Let me pose this situation. Let's say your mother/brother/sister/daughter/son/whatever is a political activist. Lets say they are against the Bush administration. And for arguments sake, lets say they are extremely vocal about it. They start getting some press, the Bush administration starts to take notice. Instead of letting this get out of hand they are unjustly accused to have ties with a terrorist organiztion. Now they are arrested, they don't have the right to talk to an attourney, they are allowed to be held indefinatly without being convicted of any crime. What's worse is that the government doesn't even have to notify anyone. One day you just stop hearing from them and never know why.
Sound far fetched? Then go read the unfortunatly named "Patriot Act" that was passed shortly after 9/11. This act gives the government the right to do all of those things and more. It gives the government legal authority to deny a US citizen their constitutionally protected rights. The same rights the people are dying to protect, but they can't protect us from our own government. I'm not saying this is going on, but why even let the government have that kind of power? For safey? Well, I have my own opinions on that but I'll just answer it with a quote from someone who is one of the greatest (and original) Americans in history:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
George Bush is ruining this country and most people are either not educated enough or too blindly partisan to see it.
I'm not too excited about voting for Kerry, I have to be honest, but I'm going to anyway. I like to think of the US as a big company, and as a taxpaying citizen I am a shareholder. If I see the CEO of a company I am invested it running the company into the ground while him and the rest of the board of trustees benefit, I'm not going to sit by and let him do it. I'm going to try and find a new CEO. US citizens have a say in how the country is run in the same way a shareholder has a say in the way a company is run. Everyone living in the US has a vested intrest in what our government does and we need to get out and be heard.
If you read all this and think that Bush is still the greatest then thats fine, I won't be changing your mind. If you plan on voting please at least check out some of these links and get informed. Don't go vote for Bush "because I'm a Republican". Vote for him because you think hes the best choice to lead our country, and until you are throughly informed about his record and his policy you will never be able to say that he is without lying to yourself.
Sorry again for the hijack.
Him:
***************
to me jon kerry personifies all that is wrong with the world today pandering to special interest groups and trying so hard to not offend anyone that nothing actually gets done. im not going to vote for bush because im a republican im voting for george bush because he stands for something and he took a stand.
you think our international relations got pissed away? what about britain? oh and who doesnt like us france? has france ever done anything worthwhile well accept for mayonaise we'll give em that one. ill go out on a limb and say fuck europe. do we want to be more like them? what s wrong with ok they attack us we attack them back while the UN sits around and tries to figure out a peaceful solution.
can you honsestly tell me that the world is not a better place without saddam hussein? shit if 9/11 happened while bill clinton was in office and he took the same approach that george bush did i would be praising him right now.
the patriot act is kinda fucked up but look at michael moore he made a movie filled with half truths and accusations bad mouthing the president. is he in jail? hell the whole of the liberal media trashes bush on a nightly basis. what prison is dan rather in? i wanna send him a care package.
i mean i looked at all the pretty numbers you linked but that means very little to me i failed economics. but as far as im concerned my life (economically) has changed very little from the clinton years to the bush2 years. i mean if i took time i could find an assload of numbers that show how good a job george bush is doing. our country economically has been in a downward spiral for years. we keep clinging to our manufacturing jobs but the companies are moving to other countries for cheaper labor. and whose fault is that? the evil republicans? or is it the unions who keep asking for higher wages for employees which eventually force companies to get cheaper labor?
ok i better shut up now. not meant to rile you up break, i remember that football thread from about a year ago just a little friendly debate
Me:
****************
quote:
not meant to rile you up break
Don't worry, I don't mind intellegent debate.
quote:
to me jon kerry personifies all that is wrong with the world today pandering to special interest groups
Now THIS is funny. Let's see....
Bush passed legislation that would allow corporate polluters to police themeselves. The environmental protection was suggested but not required. Do you think a corporate polluter is going to spend money to help the environment?
VP Cheney used to be CEO of Haliburton who now has the largest government rebuilding contract in Iraq thanks to who? Seems like a huge conflict of interest to me.
Bush said the average American would receive about $1400 from his tax cuts. While that is true its very misleading. Here is an example:
Put Bill gates in a room with 10 homeless guys and they will have an average net worth of $2.74 billion.
The average tax cut for the bottom 60% of Americans was only $304, whereas the average tax cut for Americans making $1 million or more was $112,925.
Bush repealled the estate tax. Republicans demonized it by calling it the death tax and people scared people into supporting his decision. For those who dont know what the estate tax it is a tax on the worth of your estate when you die. Because of this the richest 4.500 estates recieved a tax cut equal to the poorest 142 million Americans did from his tax cut.
This isn't phantom money, and you dont have to have passed economics to understand this. When you give that much of a tax break to the rich it has to come from somewhere. It comes from your grandparents and parents social security. It comes from the social security I'll never see. It comes from environmental programs, education and after school programs, veterans programs, healthcare.
"Bush promised, "I came to this office to solve problems and not pass them on to future presidents and future generations." Yet as a direct consequence of his tax policy, over six years an American family of four will take on $52,000 more in its share of the national debt."
We are all paying for this tax cuts, the money in this country is trickling upwards, Bush is truely an anti-Robin Hood, stealing from the poor and middle class to give to the rich.
quote:
our country economically has been in a downward spiral for years
Yes it has, and some of the above are the reasons why. Economy is stimulated by the spending of money. Give a middle class family an extra $1,000 and they are going to spend it. That money goes to a company which profits and their stock rises. When their stock rises and demand for their product of service goes up they expand. Part of expanding is providing new jobs and investing that money into other companies to accomplish the expansion. Those companies in turn get more business and can hire more employees who in turn get a paycheck that they use to buy stuff and give more money to those same companies.
If you take that money from them instead they don't have it to spend. The company doesn't get that money and demand for their product decreases along with their stock. Employees are laid off which hurts the economy even more. The only people profiting from this are those who are getting the money directly, the very rich. And in the long run they will lose too because their assest and business will decline in wealth along with the rest of the economy.
As you can see Bush is pandering to the rich.
quote:
ill go out on a limb and say fuck europe. do we want to be more like them?
The problem with America today is that we ARE becoming more like Europe. The United States was started by a bunch of people who got fed up and said "fuck it" and came here. Now people just ignore the problem and by ignoring the problem they become part of it.
quote:
what s wrong with ok they attack us we attack them back while the UN sits around and tries to figure out a peaceful solution
There's nothing wrong with that, only one problem...IRAQ NEVER ATTACKED US. Not only did they not attack us but there is absolutly no connection between Al Queda and Iraq that can be proved. There are connections between them and other countries that CAN be proved, but we arent attacking them are we.
As far as sitting around looking for a peaceful solution is concerned, when did that become a BAD thing? Maybe instead of peacful protests Martin Luther King should have started a race war.
quote:
can you honsestly tell me that the world is not a better place without saddam hussein?
This isn't an issue because outside of the Baath party I dont think anyone would say the world isn't better without him. The problem with the "freeing the Iraqi people" argument that Republicans like to use is that there are tons of people around the world being oppressed. I do think they need help, but I guarantee you none of those people really care about that. Is Rush Limbaugh (a/k/a partisan puppet fucktard) up in arms trying to get the Bush administration to invade the Sudan? Thousands of Sudanese are being butchered by muslim militia being supported by the government yet no one seems to give a fuck. Free Iraq!
quote:
we keep clinging to our manufacturing jobs but the companies are moving to other countries for cheaper labor. and whose fault is that?
The government has the power to protect American jobs. How about heavily taxing foreign payroll? Nah, lets award these companies with insanely huge tax cuts instead.
quote:
or is it the unions who keep asking for higher wages for employees which eventually force companies to get cheaper labor?
I agree that many unions are corrupt, but do you honestly think they are the ones driving jobs overseas? As long as it's profitable to ship jobs overseas companies will do it. Having unions asking for higher wages is a convinient excuse. If shipping jobs overseas wasn't profitable companies wouldn't do it.
Another point about Kerry pandering; I do agree with you. Unfortunatly EVERY successful politician panders to one special interest group or another. Ever since laws were passed that deemed giving money to a candidate as "freedom of speech" all politicians are in someones pocket. They have to be to be successful because it's those special interest groups that are paying for their campaign. Without campaign finance reform this will always be true and the average citizen will be the one to suffer