The Dark Knight

[jij]

My thoughts on this are still a bit jumbled, so forgive me if they tend to tumble over each other a bit.  I've written this without looking at any other reviews for the movie because I didn't want mine to be in reaction to them.  So bear with me if I state the obvious that's been hashed over a dozen times, or seem really stupid.  :)

In George

Comments

[seacrystal]

Forgive me I still haven't watched this movie, so I just scrolled down to comment instead of reading the whole post. But your opening post reminds me so much of what Bale himself had said on the History Channel documentary regarding the Joker's character and I completely agree with him: "The Joker wants to see that everybody has a price, that nobody is pure -- and that even Batman can be bought, or can be leveraged in such a way that he would compromise his principles."

[jij]

I won't spoil you, then! :) I did get to watch that documentary, so it's very possible Bale's words were staying with me...I think they're a very good summary of this version of the Joker. He lives to see the moment when people break and abandon their principles in the face of their own self-interest. It's...very scary.

[littlepunkryo]

This is exactly how I saw the movie, too, although I absolutely loved the Joker in it. ;)

A lot of people complained about the boat scene, saying it was pointless and took away from the ending, but I honestly thought, "Are you kidding? That's basically what the entire movie was about!"

In the face of great and growing darkness, it's still possible to be a decent person, to remain at heart a good human being. That's what I got from that entire movie.

[jij]

In the face of great and growing darkness, it's still possible to be a decent person, to remain at heart a good human being.

*nods* I think the structure throws people off, with some reason--narratively the failure should be in the second third of the movie, and the success in the last third, not the other way around. But the scene with the ships has to happen earlier in order to justify Batman's desire to keep giving the people of Gotham hope. In a way I feel his sacrifice is an underestimation of the people of his own city--again, they weren't asking "What would Harvey Dent do?" on those ships. The people of Gotham can be their own heroes. But at a certain level I think Bruce still wants Harvey to be the hero he saw him as. I'm hoping there's a third movie where he learns to let go of that need and transcend the darkness even more.

...and I really need to go see this movie again, lol. I need to watch it sometime when my heart isn't pounding, and I can pay more attention to the themes.

[naga_battousai]

What a lovely review, I don't think that I have read a better description of what the Joker's purpose is. And you are one of the few who focused on the ferry-scene as the key emotional pivots in the movie

[jij]

It was the 'big' climax for act 3 and it certainly has sufficient gravity and impact, but the scene with Harvey afterwards is the 'personal' climax and it hits me harder emotionally.I think part of the reason it didn't so much with me is that part of me always stayed very aware that Harvey was going to make the wrong choice--that he's kind of doomed to, based on years of canon. Harvey will make bad choices, Jim and Bruce will make good choices (whether those choices lead to tragedy or triumph or something bittersweetly transcending either is a very different issue, and very gripping). But I really had no faith, when it came down to the key moment, about what Random Thug and Random Suit would do. Those moments felt like judgments on all humanity rather than judgments on the canon characters, so I was very tense about what the message would be. Batman sacrifices himself for the people of Gotham--but are those people worth the sacrifice? That the answer was yes filled me with intense relief

[naga_battousai]

Yes, I think we all know that Harvey will turn bad at the end, but the plot was changed enough from the comics (did you like the nod to the comic origin at Harvey's first scene at the courtroom?), Aaron Eckhart was so *good*, and they did such a fantastic job of setting things up so that so much was riding on Harvey Dent that I ended up rooting for him too because the alternative was too horrible, even if I know how it will probably end up

[jij]

Yes, I think we all know that Harvey will turn bad at the end, but the plot was changed enough from the comics (did you like the nod to the comic origin at Harvey's first scene at the courtroom?)

The courtroom scene was great! In my case, I think seeing it later than most people was part of the problem. People were very careful not to spoil me, but I did pick up enough to figure out Rachel was going to die, and I figured Harvey's turn would be related to that...(I thought he was amazing in Rachel's death scene as well).

It's this kind of 'couldhaves' littered across the movie that was shattered with Rachel's death that was so painful.

It's true, he really was doing so much and was incorruptable...again, I really think my own over-awareness of his fate blinded me to how tragic his story is. I think when I go back and watch it again (oh yes, I shall be doing that) I'll have a better appreciation for it. This Harvey was a much better man than many of the comics versions I've seen, destroyed not by his own dark impulses so much as

[bradygirl_12]

YES! Go read my review, Jen! ;)

I focused on the boat scene as one of the best in the movie, and Bruce's aloneness is truly stunning here.

I'm glad the movie didn't bum you out! :)

I do have an S/B plot bunny that takes place at the end of this. Frankly, I didn't like the ending much. As my review states, people taking on blame for something they didn't do doesn't stirke me as noble. More like stupid. ;)

I don't like Batman as killer (perceived as) and will fight that perception with everything I have! Ahem. ;)

Anyway, I detail my thoughts in my review and you can jump in and agree/disagree all you like!

I find your reading of the movie excellent and am thrilled that you enjoyed it! :)

Didn't you just love Morgan Freeman's moment with the blackmailer? ;)

[jij]

I do have an S/B plot bunny that takes place at the end of this. Frankly, I didn't like the ending much. As my review states, people taking on blame for something they didn't do doesn't stirke me as noble. More like stupid. ;)

Oooh, what are you going to do with it?

I don't like Batman as killer (perceived as) and will fight that perception with everything I have! Ahem. ;)

I don't like Batman perceived as a killer either, but I don't think Batman sees the perception of himself as a killer to be important at all. He's not on the streets to inspire people, he's there to stop criminals. As long as he knows he doesn't kill, I don't think he cares what his public image is. In fact, I think if people think he kills, he probably can do his job more humanely. He won't need to do things like break Maroni's legs as often, because thugs are a lot more likely to talk quickly if they perceive Batman as a killer. If being seen as a killer makes Gotham a better place, I think he'd do it and would laugh at fangirls like me getting all woobie

[bradygirl_12]

Oooh, what are you going to do with it?

I'll be going the opposite of what most people think. I don't think it's a good idea for Batman to be perceived as a killer. Then he's no better than the Joker and the other scum out there.

Clark is going to be very upset! He and Jim and Alfred and Lucius will form a conspiracy to enlighten Bruce, I think. ;)

[jij]

I don't think it's a good idea for Batman to be perceived as a killer. Then he's no better than the Joker and the other scum out there.

I assume you mean he's perceived to be no better than the Joker and other scum, right? Because in reality, of course, he's rather better than the Joker. I guess I just don't see Bruce as caring that much what people think of him as long as he's helping them. They can be their own heroes, they don't need him for that. He's there to protect them, not inspire them. But that's just my take, of course--I'll be intrigued to see yours!

[sara_lakali]

Yes, I agree with your assesment of the Joker's characterization in this movie. He has much in common with the Joker from The Killing Joke.

This Joker also didn't come across so much as insane as completely unafraid of dying. How much would it have taken for one of the gangsters in that meeting scene to just shoot him? He doesn't even act as if that's a possibility.

Eh, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts on the movie into words. I probably need to see it again.

[jij]

He is very much drawn from Killing Joke, isn't he? I'd kind of forgotten that the purposeful, teacher-of-pain Joker does have definite antecedents.

Eh, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts on the movie into words. I probably need to see it again.

I know just what you mean! Every time I tried to write this it mostly just became a mash of random thought. It was really hard to sort them out. :)