Leg shaving time

[jomaraubat]

I've met a number of women recently, all strong, clever, successful, some in powerful positions, who have started sentences with some version of "I'm not a feminist, but . . ." My former partner used to see this frequently in the Uni classes she taught. What's going on here? Has Andrea Dworkin convinced everybody that her version of feminism is

Comments

[carkass]

I am a feminist. i do shave my legs, i do like to wear skirts, to look pretty, i like romantic comidies. what feminism means to me, what i believe was it's original objective, is equality. not men-have-kept-us-down-long-enough-so-lets-fuck-them-over feminism which people seem to assosiate with the word. but giving people, men and women, the same choices, the same wadges, the same RESPECT, the same validity. i know a number of men who are feminists. i think the term should be changed to equalists. i stand up to people now when they make comments so sterotyically sexist. i used to just brush it off as ignorance but what does that do? besides breeding apathy and tolerance of things that should not be tolerated. anyway, i guess that's my opinion in a nut-shell.

[jomaraubat]

Equalist is pretty good I think, but equality is a slippery sucker. Equality of opportunity or equality of outcomes? Does a few millenia of subjugation entitle women to some extra help, because the starting point is further behind?

I agree with you about respect totally. Still very lacking I think.

[actofkindness]

I would consider myself a feminist defining that term as: women deserve the same privileges in society as men do. Equal pay. Equal work. Which all hints as the above responder redefining the term: equalist

[jomaraubat]

Yeah- equalist. I can't say I agree with you about feminism evolving into the gay movement. There's certainly a number of high profile lesbians who are well known feminists AND who conflate lesbianism with feminism (ie - all hetero sex is rape), but I think that is a fairly radical offshoot of feminism. I think part of the confusion is that the term "feminist" has come to be characterised by the radical edge, which is why a lot of women do the "I'm not a feminist" thing.

AND I think the world should have as many groups as possible fighting for equality, so I disagree with you there too.

But I totally agree with you about what feminism means to you. I think what would be a really good sign that women are considered equal, is if a man was a knitting stay at home "mom" and that was seen as a fine choice too. Thanks.

[spray_of_petals]

You are the only other person I know that is part of the BDSM community other than myself and a close friend I know so it is interesting to hear you bring this point up. We were just discussing how my identity as a strong woman worked into my identity as a submissive partner and whether the two were even compatible. My answer was an emphatic 'yes'. I don't think feminism means women being all powerful but women having the choice of power. Feminism is about offering the same choices, not about women necessarily making the same choices. Choices, choices, choices. We should all be able to have that freedom.

[jomaraubat]

Hi stranger:-)))

"the choice of power" - well said. Feminism in BDSM is a trifle complex, but I totally agree with you that its possible to be a submissive AND a feminist. I know a few subs, including my former partner, who are strong strong women and quite clear that they are feminists. My partner used to introduce herself at poetry readings as a queer, feminist, submissive poet. There is a great book called "A Defence of Masochism" by Anita Phillips which elegantly argues the case. One of the things she said, was that you can take the history of women's subjugation (or I think personal abuse, etc) and, by eroticising it, you can regain control. (Short version)

I think it's even trickier with tops, especially men. I came to BDSM late, and maybe I'd have a different view if life were different. I would hope not though.

About offering the same choices, or equality of opportunity. That can be tricky. What about equality of outcomes? But I absolutely agree that feminism is not about MAKING the same choices.

[spider88]

I know you posted this ages ago, but I'm just dropping by...

My definition of feminism is constructing a society in a way such that a woman may choose to live completely independent of a husband or father. That means she is entitled to education as a girl as well as a boy's, birth control, abortion, the right to learn self-defense, and a career of her choosing with the same pay a man would earn for the same job.

It makes no sense to me to say that BDSM is incompatible with this. Indeed, in an nonfeminist society, it would be very dangerous indeed to be a submissive. The whole BDSM subculture is inherently a feminist one. And as our feminist mothers pointed out, marriage itself was a very dangerous, oppressive arrangement. Within the context of feminism, it is a chosen, negotiated relationship. Or it can be opted out of completely.

[jomaraubat]

Like your brain. "constructing a society" is exactly right. Much better than trying to construct feminism in the patriarchal society that already exists - I saw your recent post about women's rights being eroded (well exploded) in the Southern States - fucking scary stuff and we in Australia are just 5 years behind with our mega conservative Govt and a rise in religious fundamentalism in politics.

Of course BDSM is compatable with feminism, it just isn't always. Which means many subs, esp women, are getting a raw deal, at least in my limited experience. Most that I've met operate in a kind of benevolent dictator relationship, where it works, but not because the system is good. Maybe BDSM is more evolved in the US. But I know doms, dommes and subs who are clearly feminists in thought and action. Like me, like you.