In which the author makes a Poll bound to offend somebody, on a topic no one wants to discuss

[jonathankaplan]

I first saw the miniseries Roots when it originally aired.
I next saw the miniseries Roots last week.
I have always thought the End does NOT justify the means.

Comments

[ext_1460]

It's not obvious that there are any ends in a human goal system. Every change will lead to further change, all values are instrumental.

[corwyn_ap]

This.

There is no such as an 'end'. Or at least, I don't want to be around for it.

Or as Zen would have it, it is all about the journey.

[jonathankaplan]

I agree completely with this too. That is why the long term "values" of african enslavement in the US is perplexing. The journey was horrible, but at this moment, I think an educated black American would be hard pressed to say they aren't better off at this moment in time than they would have been if their ancestors hadn't taken that journey.
Fortunately, this isn't the end yet either.
The only end I want to be a part of is the Restaurant at the End of the Universe. Otherwise, forget it.
Thanks!

[corwyn_ap]

For my next trick, I have a foolproof plan that will make every human living on this planet a billionaire. I am sure that they also will be hard pressed to say they aren't better off.

[jonathankaplan]

You are such a good person, from what I have read here, and I regret bringing up this ugliness. But no one ever talks about it, and I wanted to know

[corwyn_ap]

"America would be a much less diverse country, much more "white", and perhaps, with much less of a tolerance for diversity"

I don't see much inherent good in 'diversity' of peoples. And it provides plenty of opportunity for bad.

Is Japan really a drastically worse place for its lack of diversity? How about a Japan which was never forced open by America gunships?

[jonathankaplan]

As a Jew, with many centuries of oppressed ancestors, I DO see inherent good in diversity. I also see plenty of bad in "non-diversity".

Is Japan "drastically" worse for lack of diversity? I'd say the word "drastically" is well placed, so no. But you did pick a good "model country" for your point, and even there, lack of diversity in culture is going to cause them real problems, demographically. Too many old people and a poor male/female ratio would be alleviated if they were a more open country, with a more tolerant culture. But I am Gaijin, so what do I know?

It isn't so much the diversity that is the inherent good, it is the lack of diversity (that often creates and increases the lack of tolerance for others) that is the Bad. That Bad is really bad, imo. That lack of tolerance has created untold hundreds of millions of deaths in world history.

[anonymous]

The problem with the quiz is in question 4.

Question 4 should be: In this year, I am happier living where I am than anywhere in western Africa had slavery and western pillaging of Africa never occurred.

Currently, most would prefer living in the US vs. western Africa, but if slavery and western pillaging of Africa had not occurred, the overall standard of living for blacks worldwide may be higher than it is today.

It is similarly crass as to asking a person conceived during a rape if the rape was a good thing because without it, they would not exist.

[anonymous]

and I would say that my answer to my question 4 is basically unknowable, or "Don't Know."

[slowjoe]

You could equally argue that if the west African slave traders hadn't sold slaves to North America, then they'd have sold them to the middle east, where slavery still apparently continues.

Only this month, west africa sees serious ethnic/religious pogroms. Machetes, nets, burning fugitives out of trees, which I imagine bears uncanny similarity to the slave raids, except more barbaric. (See http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7076486.ece and note that the story is dated today.)

What mechanism are you suggesting that allows that eliminating the most prosperous group of blacks in the world would raise the average level of prosperity?

Foolishness. And the straw man of the rape comparison doesn't help.

[jonathankaplan]

Thanks for responding. This is a difficult question, never discussed, and you make some relevant points.
Thanks again.

[filthy_habit]

Rats. I mis-answered #3...Shoulda been True.

[jonathankaplan]

Yes.
I think, even if little comes from this, that it is telling that not a single poll-respondent said "False" to question #3. No one was even willing to say "more false than true".
That is very illustrative of something.

[prock]

Part of the problem with the Africa questions is that they conflate class with race. When I lived in western Africa, I had a great time. I suspect that on a relative basis, some western countries in Africa are much better for black people than the US. Senegal leaps to mind.

I'm not at all sure what your point is. It looks like you are doing a lot of painting with black oil on a white canvas here. Maybe you should try charcoal on newsprint?

[jonathankaplan]

I don't know that I have a point. But here are a few thoughts that were buzzing around in my head, and I wanted some feedback

[prock]

1) I think it is quite likely that Black Americans are better off where they are now than where they would have been if White Euro/Americans hadn't perpetuated the horrific crime of slavery upon them.

I suspect you don't have a clear view of the modern social demographics of blacks in America, or in a peaceful West African nation like Senegal. It kind of sounds like you're putting too much of a premium money and not enough on liberty.

In the US, black unemployment rates are double that of whites. Unfortunately, the definition of unemployment is difficult to compare between countries, but it is certainly much higher in Senegal.

In Senegal, 54% of the people live in poverty. In the US about 25% of blacks live in poverty.

The incarceration rate of blacks is six times that of whites, and double that of Apartheid era South Africa..

The US incarceration rate of Blacks is 46 times that of Senegal. In the US, thirty percent of black men without a college education-and sixty percent of black men without a high school degree-had been

[prock]

I should add that the economies of countries like Senegal would also be better off if it weren't for European imperialism.