(no subject)
In reply to rex_beowulf's post, which he deleted:
His text in italics followed by my responses.
He starts off by quoting a comment I made in response to an earlier post he made:
When you move to a new hotel, you have to negotiate a new rate irregardless of what rate you previously had with any other hotel. As hotels will not often give you stellar rates right off the bat. Also, they moved from a 3 diamond to 4 diamond property IIRC, so that means the rate will go up, period. There was probably some nogotiating in there to avoid paying too much for the event space as well as trying to establish credit with the hotel. $129 a night is pretty good, if not about average for larger furry conventions at upscale properties (the DoubleTree is a upscale property for the perposes of this comment).
Also, if everyone canceled their room reservations, the only direction the rate would go is up. Yuo could be Her Majesty The Queen of England and a hotel will still get pissed of your attrition skyrockets.
Typical of a fur from the Seattle area I guess - total display of idiocy both in use of language, and ignorance of the larger issues of the furry fandom...
So, let's explain away the 32% increase in room costs during the worst economic crisis by saying that, somehow, the increase is going to happen no matter what. I guess when you live in Seattle and deal with a convention that also has room rates as obnoxiously high, you can't see the bigger picture.
The problem is that FC had to move, the convention was to big for the DoubleTree and it was starting to seriously detract from attendees enjoyment of the convention. They chose to focus on other matters than trying to renegotiate the room rate, which is not that simple once you've signed a contract. Room rates are determined by economic factors, but the hotel also depends on agreements to stay in place, hence when a convention can get $113 a night at a hotel that normally charges $179 a night, it will be an uphill battle to get the rate reduced if the hotel lowers their walk up rate to $129 a night. But as RainFurrest has proven, that extra $14 a night that matters so much to you does not really affect how many people book rooms.
When I planned a convention 3 years ago, I had a room rate of $89/room set. But I had no bargaining power because it was a first-year con, and had no promise of a large number of people. But I did negotiate a rental-rate for the convention space of a mere $2,000 for the weekend.
You probably also were not dealing with a large full service hotel with 370 rooms and an airport nearby, these things tend to increase the rate the hotel is willing to go with.
Negotiation is a key element in conventions. Any one who does conventions, does them well, and does them professionally knows this. You can't have a successful convention and make money (for charity in the case of FC or other furry cons, which have, with few exceptions - thank you Trapa - been non-profit and benefitting charity) if you have a high room rate. It excludes too many guests, period.
Why are you attacking Trapa? What convention do you refer to? And who says FC et al are unprofessional while negotiating contracts? Ive sat in on some of these deals and I have yet to see those involved acting unprofessionally.
As I have said time and time again, I read an article early this year or late last year about conventions renegotiating room and other rates due to the economy. Unlike most furries, I keep up with the news. And a quick search for "conventions renegotiating rates" pulls up a wealth of information on renegotiation of room rates, including advice from convention organizations, which the furry fandom lacks (and which I have offered to try to help provide.)
Okay, provide said advice here. Also, if your going to criticize my writing skills, please allow me to criticize your inability to produce a valid anchor tag.
My issue here is that congoers are not being well serviced by FC staff, not only due to the obvious corruption as evidenced by recent events, but by the fact that in the worst economic climate in 80 years, when many more furs than usual are unemployed or otherwise financially stressed, Further Confusion moved to a new hotel with a room rate that is 32% higher, excluding many furs, including many of my friends who I wanted to see there. And that's not even considering other cost increases, such as luggage fees (tip: fly Southwest Airlines!) parking, shuttle costs (there is no free shuttle from the airport to the hotel, several miles from the airport), and increased food costs (downtown San Jose lacks lower-cost food resources that the Doubletree had.)
All this economic downturn stuff, and Im still not seeing how its affecting furry conventions, FC was growing out of the DoubleTree and theres nothing you can do to deal with that except cap attendance or raise membership fees. Im sure if they did either, you would be ranting about it here.
My issues with the room rates are not personal. I expected to have more than enough money, and planned to rent a suite, actually. But what the hell good does it do me to rent a suite at FC if fewer of the people I care about and wanted to see will be in attendance, and fewer of the artists whose works I like to see, and whom I love the chance to chat with even briefly will be there, and fewer of the vendors I like will be there because they can't afford the new hotel rates and other cost increases? The value of Further Confusion went down, significantly. This bullshit with Loran and other staffers acted as the ton of bricks that broke the camel's back, so to speak. For me, the major issue is a corrupt staff, and the minor issue was the cost. For everyone else, the major issue should be the increase in costs, coupled with evidence that FC staff doesn't give a shit about its attendees, and the minor issue should be what happened to me, and only as evidence in support of the notion, along with the increased cost and failure of FC staff to negotiate a better room rate, that FC staff really could care less about its attendees, as long as they come and pony up the dough. Hell, they don't even have a charity chosen.
You show me a convention that size free of corrupt staff and political infighting and I will show you a well told lie.
Furries shouldn't have to tolerate this, period. We have a right and I feel deserve better treatment by convention staff. But when you accept status quo, and react the way most of you have to events that demonstrate corruption, perhaps you do deserve to be treated like livestock, your attendance and comfort at a convention only minor considerations in an effort by a staff to cater to its own at YOUR expense!
If you think you can do better, go ahead and try.
And that, my friends, is what the real issue here should be. That you are being forced into a more expensive hotel, not because it meets YOUR needs, but because it caters to the desires of San Jose furries, FC staff, and their friends. Think about it - why else move to a prestigious hotel? To service the needs of all furries, or to service the needs of the egos of these locals? Are you mere fodder to justify the use of a luxury hotel? Are you and/or your friends being excluded so that these locals, who have demonstrated a bond between each other that rivals the most corrupt political bodies, can live it up and have a party next year at your expense?
FC is moving to a more expensive hotel precisely for the attendees needs, if the staff could get away with it, they would try ot stay at the DoubleTree. You cant have a 3000 person convention at a hotel that will only resonably fit 2500 people in its event space.
Sure, some people will benefit from this. There are vendors who would definitely benefit from a convention attended by more affluent furries. And maybe having a "luxury" convention might be a good thing to do. But to turn the second largest convention (by attendance) into a luxury convention is wrong. These people have Baycon and private parties. They don't need to exclude furries on economic grounds, and especially not when good people with good skills are being excluded from the job market. It's not fair, period.
Were talking about less than a 25% rise in total costs, this is hardly the convention becoming a high class event.
[...]
Oh, and the reason I didn't unscreen this or any other comment, is because this person, nor anyone else thus far, has actually wanted to participate in a discussion (or demonstrated proper use of the English language.) if you want to engage in a discussion with me, I don't require that you agree with me - on the contrary, I encourage disagreement, else discussion cannot be had. I posted this comment in the way I did because this person demonstrated a level of ignorance that unfortunately pervades the fandom, and more unfortunately the staff of furry conventions.
Im attempting to engage you in a discussion, and all you can do is slap it aside in insult my use of the English language. Im sure you think your an authority on proper grammar or something, but I have news for you, nobody cares enough about grammar on LiveJournal to make it grounds for dismissing an argument in entirety. Please, elaborate on what Im being ignorant of, am I missing something here?
If only furries would realize that by working together, they can create resources such as the ability to bargain with hotels and hotel chains for better room rates so that they can benefit everyone.
Been there, done that.
His text in italics followed by my responses.
He starts off by quoting a comment I made in response to an earlier post he made:
When you move to a new hotel, you have to negotiate a new rate irregardless of what rate you previously had with any other hotel. As hotels will not often give you stellar rates right off the bat. Also, they moved from a 3 diamond to 4 diamond property IIRC, so that means the rate will go up, period. There was probably some nogotiating in there to avoid paying too much for the event space as well as trying to establish credit with the hotel. $129 a night is pretty good, if not about average for larger furry conventions at upscale properties (the DoubleTree is a upscale property for the perposes of this comment).
Also, if everyone canceled their room reservations, the only direction the rate would go is up. Yuo could be Her Majesty The Queen of England and a hotel will still get pissed of your attrition skyrockets.
Typical of a fur from the Seattle area I guess - total display of idiocy both in use of language, and ignorance of the larger issues of the furry fandom...
So, let's explain away the 32% increase in room costs during the worst economic crisis by saying that, somehow, the increase is going to happen no matter what. I guess when you live in Seattle and deal with a convention that also has room rates as obnoxiously high, you can't see the bigger picture.
The problem is that FC had to move, the convention was to big for the DoubleTree and it was starting to seriously detract from attendees enjoyment of the convention. They chose to focus on other matters than trying to renegotiate the room rate, which is not that simple once you've signed a contract. Room rates are determined by economic factors, but the hotel also depends on agreements to stay in place, hence when a convention can get $113 a night at a hotel that normally charges $179 a night, it will be an uphill battle to get the rate reduced if the hotel lowers their walk up rate to $129 a night. But as RainFurrest has proven, that extra $14 a night that matters so much to you does not really affect how many people book rooms.
When I planned a convention 3 years ago, I had a room rate of $89/room set. But I had no bargaining power because it was a first-year con, and had no promise of a large number of people. But I did negotiate a rental-rate for the convention space of a mere $2,000 for the weekend.
You probably also were not dealing with a large full service hotel with 370 rooms and an airport nearby, these things tend to increase the rate the hotel is willing to go with.
Negotiation is a key element in conventions. Any one who does conventions, does them well, and does them professionally knows this. You can't have a successful convention and make money (for charity in the case of FC or other furry cons, which have, with few exceptions - thank you Trapa - been non-profit and benefitting charity) if you have a high room rate. It excludes too many guests, period.
Why are you attacking Trapa? What convention do you refer to? And who says FC et al are unprofessional while negotiating contracts? Ive sat in on some of these deals and I have yet to see those involved acting unprofessionally.
As I have said time and time again, I read an article early this year or late last year about conventions renegotiating room and other rates due to the economy. Unlike most furries, I keep up with the news. And a quick search for "conventions renegotiating rates" pulls up a wealth of information on renegotiation of room rates, including advice from convention organizations, which the furry fandom lacks (and which I have offered to try to help provide.)
Okay, provide said advice here. Also, if your going to criticize my writing skills, please allow me to criticize your inability to produce a valid anchor tag.
My issue here is that congoers are not being well serviced by FC staff, not only due to the obvious corruption as evidenced by recent events, but by the fact that in the worst economic climate in 80 years, when many more furs than usual are unemployed or otherwise financially stressed, Further Confusion moved to a new hotel with a room rate that is 32% higher, excluding many furs, including many of my friends who I wanted to see there. And that's not even considering other cost increases, such as luggage fees (tip: fly Southwest Airlines!) parking, shuttle costs (there is no free shuttle from the airport to the hotel, several miles from the airport), and increased food costs (downtown San Jose lacks lower-cost food resources that the Doubletree had.)
All this economic downturn stuff, and Im still not seeing how its affecting furry conventions, FC was growing out of the DoubleTree and theres nothing you can do to deal with that except cap attendance or raise membership fees. Im sure if they did either, you would be ranting about it here.
My issues with the room rates are not personal. I expected to have more than enough money, and planned to rent a suite, actually. But what the hell good does it do me to rent a suite at FC if fewer of the people I care about and wanted to see will be in attendance, and fewer of the artists whose works I like to see, and whom I love the chance to chat with even briefly will be there, and fewer of the vendors I like will be there because they can't afford the new hotel rates and other cost increases? The value of Further Confusion went down, significantly. This bullshit with Loran and other staffers acted as the ton of bricks that broke the camel's back, so to speak. For me, the major issue is a corrupt staff, and the minor issue was the cost. For everyone else, the major issue should be the increase in costs, coupled with evidence that FC staff doesn't give a shit about its attendees, and the minor issue should be what happened to me, and only as evidence in support of the notion, along with the increased cost and failure of FC staff to negotiate a better room rate, that FC staff really could care less about its attendees, as long as they come and pony up the dough. Hell, they don't even have a charity chosen.
You show me a convention that size free of corrupt staff and political infighting and I will show you a well told lie.
Furries shouldn't have to tolerate this, period. We have a right and I feel deserve better treatment by convention staff. But when you accept status quo, and react the way most of you have to events that demonstrate corruption, perhaps you do deserve to be treated like livestock, your attendance and comfort at a convention only minor considerations in an effort by a staff to cater to its own at YOUR expense!
If you think you can do better, go ahead and try.
And that, my friends, is what the real issue here should be. That you are being forced into a more expensive hotel, not because it meets YOUR needs, but because it caters to the desires of San Jose furries, FC staff, and their friends. Think about it - why else move to a prestigious hotel? To service the needs of all furries, or to service the needs of the egos of these locals? Are you mere fodder to justify the use of a luxury hotel? Are you and/or your friends being excluded so that these locals, who have demonstrated a bond between each other that rivals the most corrupt political bodies, can live it up and have a party next year at your expense?
FC is moving to a more expensive hotel precisely for the attendees needs, if the staff could get away with it, they would try ot stay at the DoubleTree. You cant have a 3000 person convention at a hotel that will only resonably fit 2500 people in its event space.
Sure, some people will benefit from this. There are vendors who would definitely benefit from a convention attended by more affluent furries. And maybe having a "luxury" convention might be a good thing to do. But to turn the second largest convention (by attendance) into a luxury convention is wrong. These people have Baycon and private parties. They don't need to exclude furries on economic grounds, and especially not when good people with good skills are being excluded from the job market. It's not fair, period.
Were talking about less than a 25% rise in total costs, this is hardly the convention becoming a high class event.
[...]
Oh, and the reason I didn't unscreen this or any other comment, is because this person, nor anyone else thus far, has actually wanted to participate in a discussion (or demonstrated proper use of the English language.) if you want to engage in a discussion with me, I don't require that you agree with me - on the contrary, I encourage disagreement, else discussion cannot be had. I posted this comment in the way I did because this person demonstrated a level of ignorance that unfortunately pervades the fandom, and more unfortunately the staff of furry conventions.
Im attempting to engage you in a discussion, and all you can do is slap it aside in insult my use of the English language. Im sure you think your an authority on proper grammar or something, but I have news for you, nobody cares enough about grammar on LiveJournal to make it grounds for dismissing an argument in entirety. Please, elaborate on what Im being ignorant of, am I missing something here?
If only furries would realize that by working together, they can create resources such as the ability to bargain with hotels and hotel chains for better room rates so that they can benefit everyone.
Been there, done that.