Oathkeeper

[kem_viva]

Loyalty

“ The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly’s longsword, and laid it at her feet. “Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or… whatever you would have me be.  I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new.””
-Catelyn VI, A Clash of Kings

Comments

[alexandral]

Thank you so much for this post!!!!

On tangential note I was wondering where Martin is leading. It does seem that traditional "good" qualities never get any "reward" in ASOIAF universe. One might argue that this is "how the world is", but in reality, this is NOT how the world is as in real life traditional good qualities usually help a person to lead a successful life. I wonder if Martin is going to go full circle on this and at the end will show the fall of the "evil" and the "reward" of the good (the ones that will be still alive :D). This certainly happened in his novel "Fevre Dream", so I hope this is how this is where ASOIAF going. But at the same time, in "Fevre Dream" almost everyone died.

[kem_viva]

GRRM just likes killing everyone, doesn't he lol.

I totally agree, he does not reward the traditional 'good' characteristics at all, and it seems really unfair at times. Mainly because, like you said, that is not how the world is in real life. I hope that some of the characters are eventually rewarded for good qualities, but it always seems like these characters are consistently forced to betray them in order to survive.

[geeklee]

i don't think that in real life "good qualities" necessarily triumph over evil very often. but i do believe that in real life, most people want to maintain a moral and just outlook. just not the people in power.

i find the power brokers in today's world too often resemble little finger and illyrio than brienne and ned. and don't they usually win?

i mean for every 1 of madoff's ponzi schemes that we know about, i will wager there are 3 from people we don't know. and never will.

[alexandral]

You see, I rely on the recent management course I had. Apparently it is known that having "good qualities" when leading business is beneficial to the business itself. With the power brokers the ones that are interested in gain only do not last all that long and don't build powerful empires, they just tend to destroy things. People who do build powerful empires are quite often people of high integrity. It is known.

The thing with Ned, of course, is that to his good qualities he also had inflexibility and the lack of good understanding of people and lack of quick thinking (which usually is one of the necessary qualities of successful people of power).

It is interesting, however, that in Martin-verse "integrity" and "quick thinking and knowledge of people" don't seem to happen in the same time in the same person. Why? I don't know. But I think this actually makes his books not 100% realistic view of reality (instead, they are grim view of reality) because I do believe that in RL we do have plenty of examples of people where both sets

[janie_tangerine]

You're so right that being a loyal/nice person in Westeros isn't a smart course of action considering how they usually end unless they're named Davos (who I have to seriously admire for being the one genuinely decent/loyal person in Westeros who managed to get through four books relatively in one piece..). And I loved what you said about her and Catelyn - I loved her relationship with Brienne and I sort of hoped it'd end up in a better place than, er, what's currently happening. *glares at GRRM* I honestly don't think that she'd have risked freeing Jaime, grieving or not, if Brienne hadn't been there and hadn't agreed to escort him/take her daughters back to her. And word about Brienne never swearing loyalty to people she thinks wouldn't deserve it. I can only hope that she doesn't get the short end of the stick for it - if there's one thing I want is to see her being rewarded for being a decent person (possibly getting what she wants in the meanwhile

[kem_viva]

Yeah, I admire Davos for this too, but he is one of a very small minority. I love the relationship between Cat and Brienne so much, even though they are together for a short period of time Cat definitely has a great influence on Brienne and helps her a lot. What is happening now with Lady Stoneheart is just awful, and puts Brienne in a horrible situation because Catelyn is the person she swore loyalty to, yet she isnt really Cat at all.

Thanks for reading and commenting :)

[fauxkaren]

I love Brienne's loyalty so much, but even more I love the way that she's having to challenge her ideas of loyalty when it's confronted with what is right and what is wrong. Can she be loyal to a person even if she thinks what that person is doing is wrong? So that's another reason why the whole Lady Stoneheart thing sucks. Brienne is so loyal, but Lady Stoneheart isn't really Catelyn any more.

[kem_viva]

I love this about Brienne's story so much too. (One of the other days I am going to 'adaptability'/open-mindedness as a trait)

Yeah, its so sad because you really don't know how to react in that situation, because she still is Cat physically but she is not Cat at all on the inside.

[geeklee]

i wonder about brienne's loyalty. i do believe she was completely dedicated to renly but i find it hard to believe she would be equally as loyal to catelyn so soon and with so little interaction.

i don't believe catelyn has a great deal of trust in brienne. instead, i think it is as you said, she's desperate and brienne does seem the best one to give this task to. i believe her lack of deep trust is the reason it doesn't translate to unCat. it's just not strong enough to make the journey from life to undead. she hasn't lost her faculties, just her hope and as such, has no problem killing brienne despite the fact that i believe she really knows brienne tried.

i think brienne's loyalty was originally quite pure and unwavering. but it morphed into a need to prove herself and continue being knightly. so with catelyn, it's lost some of its purity but none of its intensity.

i do not believe she will betray jaime because with him, she has emotions involved again. as with renly. she will stand by him, imho. but there is pod....

damn you

[kem_viva]

I actually do think Brienne is very loyal to Cat, I think she did have emotions when it came to her as well, but instead of romantic it is admiration. Cat really helps Brienne a lot once Renly died and I think Brienne gained a lot of respect for her then as a strong woman who treats her kindly and seems to accept her for who she is. I do think Cat realized this admiration Brienne had and that helped Cat trust her.