Arguing... again (at least with someone different this time)

[kimberly_t]

Hrrgggghh. I spent entirely too long today arguing with a senior coworker who insisted that gays are unnatural, perverted and sinful and that he doesn’t want them anywhere near him (though he did concede that what they did in the privacy of their own homes was their business)--but refused to admit that he’s homophobic

Comments

[greenbaron]

Religion is one of the toughest issues to contend with. As you may recall from some past emails and comments, I am a Confirmed Roman Catholic, and on politics I used to be a registered Republican, as my father is and his father was (even back in New Orleans during the 1940s), and I still consider Barry Goldwater the greatest President we never had

[kimberly_t]

"A big factor was a gentleman named Andrew Sullivan and his essay about socially conservative arguments favoring gay marriage."

?? Never heard of this fellow; don't suppose you have a good link to that essay? Because most conservatives I know are against gay marriage almost as much as they're against abortion.

(I'll never actually do this, but I've always wanted to go to an anti-abortion protest, and slap the following bumper sticker on each one's car: "May the fetus you save grow up to be gay.")

[greenbaron]

Andrew Sullivan's blog is http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/... )

continued

[greenbaron]

As a capitalist, I also read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged and my hawkishness was called into question as I read her novel, though I am now conflicted, but I feel I should go there at least once, due to my prior support. Also, after John Paul II died I quit going to Mass and relaized how dead my faith was. I don't even buy into that spirtual crap and recognize Jesus as a convicted felon, a fraud, and an intolerant person as his times would dictate.

As for your Chief, he does not seem to suffer form solidarity thankfully. I do wonder about some Conscientious Objectors as why they are even an issue in a volunteer Army, but that is another story. I do admit that I am biased about critics of America and tend to favor those arguments I agree with, while discarding cranks like Michael Moore (i often joke about how he'd perfom on a physical training test) or cult leader Noam Chomksy.

I think I impressed him ever-so-slightly when I started talking about how Kant and Mill proved there was a logic to the basic ethical system that every culture

[sandrusevich]

I find it morbidly amusing that, seemingly, more straight men rape little kids than homosexuals do.

As for the Bible.... also funny how, in the Bible, one minute God is vengeful and wrathful, sending death to the firstborn of Egypt and destroying places and flooding the earth, and the next he's all sweet and loving and sends his son to relinquish us of all our sins and preaching about loving our neighbour and yadda yadda.

Either God is bipolar or has multiple personality disorders, or the people who wrote the Bible are fucked in the head.

I also find it funny that Eve was punished for eating the apple and "tempting" Adam, though Adam had a choice as to whether or not he'd eat it. He ate it, Eve got blamed... really, it's Adam's own fault he got his ass kicked out of Eden, since he chose to eat the stupid apple

[kimberly_t]

"Either God is bipolar or has multiple personality disorders, or the people who wrote the Bible are fucked in the head."How 'bout both? Because if He's really watching over His Children every minute of every day, then He's the most capricious prick ever. "Should I save that sweet little girl over there from the serial child killer? ...Naaah. It's time to test how much her family loves Me. Let's see them forgive what's going to happen next

[sandrusevich]

I think there is a God, but I highly doubt that he/she/it is what everyone thinks he/she/it really is. I mean, honestly; the only ones who could really tell us are all dead. They have seen what lies beyond the veil of life, and only they can say for sure. But we can't talk to them, because they're dead

[greenbaron]

I am not a man of faith, but I am not an atheist either. I find that if God is some kind of Keynesian God there to save us all the time or even any time, what would be accomplished?

In aworld were we are capable of complex thought, ther ewill be tragedy, sorrow, and destruction. There will also be heroism, courage, and honor.

Now I am a believer in natural law which is essentially like the 4 ethics, though there may be more to it or maybe not. I believe that most positive law has a tradition that connects to religion as such is the nature of humanity. I personally think linking positive law to ancient religious tenets is a lot of fun and important to know when re-evaluating laws and determining their true value.

[mtgat]

You did tell him that of course his children are aloud to pray out loud in school, yes? First Amendment, ACLU would take the case if they weren't, as they did for the kids who handed out Bible verses with lollipops at one public school.

I hate it when people don't know the difference between "being allowed to" and "forcing other people to" matters.

[kimberly_t]

Ah, but he wanted institutionalized prayer; the whole class pausing to pray for 5 minutes at the start of each day. He even generously said it could be called 5 minutes of silence, and those who don't want to pray could do their homework or something.

Which is a nice idea, but I remember that a few years ago the school rearranged the student's schedule to take out a recess, in order to cram more learning into the school day. Taking five minutes back out of that day for prayer or meditation just ain't gonna happen.

So the kids have to pray between classes, which I think is just fine; a prayer that takes more than 2 minutes is probably just covering old ground, praying for form's sake instead of honestly talking to one's deity. But he said they have to "go off and hide" in order to do it. Why they have to hide, he didn't say exactly, but it's clear he feels they're being persecuted for their religion. (sigh)

[mtgat]

*sigh*

Okay. Simple mental exercise for him. How to tell if one is a persecuted invisible minority (which is to say, someone who is not visibly a member of a particular minority group).

1. Is he afraid that, walking down the street in this country, if he told a random stranger that he's a Christian, that person would follow him home and hurt and/or kill him based solely on that fact?

2. Is he afraid that, should the parents of his children's friends find out he's a Christian, that they will no longer allow their children to associate with his?

And when he looks at you like "WTF?" you get the joy of telling him that's what it's like to be gay, to be non-Christian, to be not the norm in the U.S. Might be fun, just to see his face, assuming the connections get made.

[doppleganger55]

*sigh* Too often people use their religion to condemn things that don't conform to the norm. It is things like this and the reportings of pedophilia from the Chicago Catholic priests that have turned me away from my Roman Catholic faith.