Wow, that's just about perfect. And the best part is your brain did all the hard work, so we didn't have to. It's a gift. Thank you.
I'm not sure how anyone could claim she didn't still love him except to say she's not with him.
This is one that I don't understand either. I suppose it's easy to dismiss what Buffy and Angel had together- after they've separated, if one needs to believe that their love is in the canonical past because then it conveniently leaves Buffy's heart available for a new love. That's probably simplistic, but it's what I've seen often in comments.
But what I'm saying is it's not about loving Angel "enough" to want to run off with him, or even be with him. It's about loving Angel in a way that's grown up and real, in a way that's grown-up and real enough to allow them to be happy with other people and do the right thing even if it hurts the other or means they can't be together.
Re: *Applause*letteredFebruary 3 2006, 23:16:27 UTC
And the best part is your brain did all the hard work, so we didn't have to. It's a gift.
Heh, thank you!
That's probably simplistic
Yeah, see, that's what gets me. There's actually really no HARD evidence in canon that she still loves him all the way through "Chosen" and beyond, and that fact makes a kind of hold in this essay-thingy. But one of the reasons I choose to believe she does still love him is it makes everything so interesting and complex and messy (okay, also because I love B/A. What's it to ya??)
Thanks again, and thanks again for the rec in your journal.
**applause, applause** But what I love about B/A is just that: they will always love each other and the hope is still always there. The way they love each other in later seasons is in no way, shape, or form anything childish, fairytale, or doomed to burn out. It just is, as simple and incontrovertible as the way a father loves a son. It's there no matter how much time passes, no matter what the other one does--even if one dies. In your most desperate hours you can call on it and it will be there for you, and if both are willing, it can spring back to life just as headlong and sexy and passionate and this is it as it's ever been before. Because the heart of it is just there, and it's a part of Angel and Buffy as much as Connor and Dawn are a part of them, too. I love the reassurance in that, and the promise, and the hope.
That's it exactly. Thank you for this; you express so eloquently what I've always felt about these two. That's also one of the reasons I loved Fairytale of New York so much; a2zmom understands Buffy and Angel as you do.
Just. POIFECT. Oooh how I love you so. I love that now, when people ask me why I love B/A, I'll just link them to this post.
I love how you covered Every. Single. Fucking. Point. You defend and make sense of them (hey, they already made sense to me, but trying to explain it to the uninformed?). They have their ups and downs, this is exactly why this ISN'T a puppy R&J love. Because while R&J was tragic..did they really know each other? Did they love each other enough to let them go, let them go off with other people, let them find happiness on their own? I'd say no. The word lust and infatuation springs to mind when I think of them. Although there are aspects of that in B/A, it grew beyond that.
They grew apart..and together as independent, strong, heroic individualts...together and apart. That my friend is a true 'mature love', which I almost hate saying because of the association with Spuffy *rolls eyes*
But what I love about B/A is just that: they will always love each other and the hope is still always there. The way they love
( ... )
Oh, thank you! You rock back and I'm so glad that other B/Aers are agreeing with me in loving the same things about the ship that I do.
I love how you covered Every. Single. Fucking. Point.
Ha, thanks, but that's frightening because I still have so much more to say. I have more meta and rants and squees in my B/A bag coming soon to a journal near you.
Because while R&J was tragic..did they really know each other? Did they love each other enough to let them go, let them go off with other people, let them find happiness on their own?
Exactly. The thing is, I like R&J. I'm not going to dismiss the play or the characters, because I think it has an interesting point. But the point is about how love is when so many people fall in love, and about how that love is so violent and obsessive, it just can't last. R&J does, imo, have a lot of parallels to early B/A, but the point is: when the shit hits the fan, R&J fail. They fail because their love is too selfish and juvenile for them to live without each other. B/A? Go on, and that's
( ... )
I think the misconception is..obviously we know the whole fluffy, highschool crap that people like to label us and B/A as. They don't realize that no, we are not in denial that these other complicating actors exist. We acknowledge that they are there, but we love them in SPITE of them.
It's not about ooh twuwuv4eva!1! (Although I'm guilty of that, but I'm not ashamed :P), I love that it can BE so incredibly dark. I love that although they can make each other (perfectly happy) in one second, they can also hurt each other more than anyone else ever could. That's compelling to me. The darkness, the IMperfections, that's what I love.
B/A has it's darkness, and I love that aspect. But I also love the fluffy cheesy aspect it had early S2. What I love best, more than both of those things, is the strength, endurance, and continuance of it. That's neither dark nor fluffy to me. It just is.
I'm not a B/A shipper really, but do I believe Angel loved Buffy, that she loved him? That it was true although doomed? Yes, absolutely.
Do I see their lives brushing time and time again?
Yes. Forever? Not in my mind, but then from the beginning, I never saw their love as destined to last anywhere but in their hearts, in their memories of what once was. Not because it was a "first love" or even because it was forbidden or doomed or impossible, but simply because both of them will never be who they were then. Nor do I think they want to, not really.
But I know one thing I do believe in - your love for this ship. This was amazing, and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing it with us, all of us. Even the non-B/A camp.
but simply because both of them will never be who they were then.
Yeah, I totally see that. A lot of people feel that way.
Nor do I think they want to, not really.
Completely agree. Some people see B/A occuring post Chosen/NFA as a reversion, but I wouldn't want them to have a relationship that was the same as before or had them acting as they did before all over again. What's the point in that? Sometimes when I think about B/A getting back together again, it's almost more like thinking about Buffy and Gunn getting together: examining people who haven't met before and trying to see how they fit together or how they might work. Of course, it's different, because B/A have met and have a history, but I love thinking about how the way they've changed and developed will play out and/or against each other if they get back together.
your love for this ship. This was amazing, and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing it with us, all of us. Even the non-B/A camp. Aw, thanks! I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record, but
( ... )
Comments 136
Yes. Just. YES.
Reply
Thanks again for the rec.
Reply
I'm not sure how anyone could claim she didn't still love him except to say she's not with him.
This is one that I don't understand either. I suppose it's easy to dismiss what Buffy and Angel had together- after they've separated, if one needs to believe that their love is in the canonical past because then it conveniently leaves Buffy's heart available for a new love. That's probably simplistic, but it's what I've seen often in comments.
But what I'm saying is it's not about loving Angel "enough" to want to run off with him, or even be with him. It's about loving Angel in a way that's grown up and real, in a way that's grown-up and real enough to allow them to be happy with other people and do the right thing even if it hurts the other or means they can't be together.
Exactly.
Brava!
Reply
Heh, thank you!
That's probably simplistic
Yeah, see, that's what gets me. There's actually really no HARD evidence in canon that she still loves him all the way through "Chosen" and beyond, and that fact makes a kind of hold in this essay-thingy. But one of the reasons I choose to believe she does still love him is it makes everything so interesting and complex and messy (okay, also because I love B/A. What's it to ya??)
Thanks again, and thanks again for the rec in your journal.
Reply
But what I love about B/A is just that: they will always love each other and the hope is still always there. The way they love each other in later seasons is in no way, shape, or form anything childish, fairytale, or doomed to burn out. It just is, as simple and incontrovertible as the way a father loves a son. It's there no matter how much time passes, no matter what the other one does--even if one dies. In your most desperate hours you can call on it and it will be there for you, and if both are willing, it can spring back to life just as headlong and sexy and passionate and this is it as it's ever been before. Because the heart of it is just there, and it's a part of Angel and Buffy as much as Connor and Dawn are a part of them, too. I love the reassurance in that, and the promise, and the hope.
That's it exactly. Thank you for this; you express so eloquently what I've always felt about these two.
That's also one of the reasons I loved Fairytale of New York so much; a2zmom understands Buffy and Angel as you do.
Reply
Reply
Also rec'd this post on my LJ, and so did scrollgirl. It's making waves!
Reply
Reply
I love how you covered Every. Single. Fucking. Point. You defend and make sense of them (hey, they already made sense to me, but trying to explain it to the uninformed?). They have their ups and downs, this is exactly why this ISN'T a puppy R&J love. Because while R&J was tragic..did they really know each other? Did they love each other enough to let them go, let them go off with other people, let them find happiness on their own? I'd say no. The word lust and infatuation springs to mind when I think of them. Although there are aspects of that in B/A, it grew beyond that.
They grew apart..and together as independent, strong, heroic individualts...together and apart. That my friend is a true 'mature love', which I almost hate saying because of the association with Spuffy *rolls eyes*
But what I love about B/A is just that: they will always love each other and the hope is still always there. The way they love ( ... )
Reply
I love how you covered Every. Single. Fucking. Point.
Ha, thanks, but that's frightening because I still have so much more to say. I have more meta and rants and squees in my B/A bag coming soon to a journal near you.
Because while R&J was tragic..did they really know each other? Did they love each other enough to let them go, let them go off with other people, let them find happiness on their own?
Exactly. The thing is, I like R&J. I'm not going to dismiss the play or the characters, because I think it has an interesting point. But the point is about how love is when so many people fall in love, and about how that love is so violent and obsessive, it just can't last. R&J does, imo, have a lot of parallels to early B/A, but the point is: when the shit hits the fan, R&J fail. They fail because their love is too selfish and juvenile for them to live without each other. B/A? Go on, and that's ( ... )
Reply
It's not about ooh twuwuv4eva!1! (Although I'm guilty of that, but I'm not ashamed :P), I love that it can BE so incredibly dark. I love that although they can make each other (perfectly happy) in one second, they can also hurt each other more than anyone else ever could. That's compelling to me. The darkness, the IMperfections, that's what I love.
Reply
Reply
Do I see their lives brushing time and time again?
Yes. Forever? Not in my mind, but then from the beginning, I never saw their love as destined to last anywhere but in their hearts, in their memories of what once was. Not because it was a "first love" or even because it was forbidden or doomed or impossible, but simply because both of them will never be who they were then. Nor do I think they want to, not really.
But I know one thing I do believe in - your love for this ship. This was amazing, and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing it with us, all of us. Even the non-B/A camp.
Reply
Yeah, I totally see that. A lot of people feel that way.
Nor do I think they want to, not really.
Completely agree. Some people see B/A occuring post Chosen/NFA as a reversion, but I wouldn't want them to have a relationship that was the same as before or had them acting as they did before all over again. What's the point in that? Sometimes when I think about B/A getting back together again, it's almost more like thinking about Buffy and Gunn getting together: examining people who haven't met before and trying to see how they fit together or how they might work. Of course, it's different, because B/A have met and have a history, but I love thinking about how the way they've changed and developed will play out and/or against each other if they get back together.
your love for this ship. This was amazing, and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing it with us, all of us. Even the non-B/A camp. Aw, thanks! I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record, but ( ... )
Reply
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