Day Nine: Lilah/Fred Day

[jennyo]

Mm, Lilah/Fred. It has a truly fabulous site, Madonna/Whore Complex, which is beautiful (and needs volunteers!), as run by roseveare. The Notorious fic section is hereI'd love to see discussion on Lilah/Fred without Wesley being overly involved...or hey, shiny Lilah/Fred porn where they pretty much tell Broody Junior to step off. Or not

Comments

Something Lilah/Fred-ish I've always wondered about

[lasultrix]

In Habeas Corpses, Lilah says to Wesley:

Funny thing about black and white, you mix it together and you get gray. And it doesn't matter how much white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but gray. And I don't see your Texas-gal-pal wearing that color. Come to think of it, she prefers black.

I see that as a rather astute comment on Lilah's part, because that is Wesley's main problem with regard to Fred, that he thinks she's whiter than white, when she really isn't.

But then, as soon as Lilah's said that, the scene changes to a shot of Gunn and Fred - who's in white. I find it hard to believe that that was unintentional, given previous Jossverse colour importance. Was it supposed to show that Lilah was wrong about Fred, after all? More of the St. Fred myth that sometimes pops up on Angel?

Re: Something Lilah/Fred-ish I've always wondered about

[jennyo]

You know, I just...don't know. Because if we want to talk about color and characters, Lilah turns up in red an awful lot. Billy a notable moment. Except when they find her, the woman with a wound in her side, who is back from the dead, who died in "Calvary", in a garden, wearing white. Speaking of things that I do think were meant to be noticed

Re: Something Lilah/Fred-ish I've always wondered about

[lia_starlet]

I think maybe, Lilah points out that Fred isn't really all that, but it cuts straight to Gunn seeing her in white. After all, it is just after the Seidel debacle. So possibly Lilah is taking on the role of truth teller/audience voice, so that we can see how wrong Gunn's view of her in white is.

Or not. Probably not. Just a thought.

[nolivingman]

I'm curious about why Fred seemed to hate Lilah more than anybody else did (excepting Lorne who had a reason). Was it just because she was jealous of Lilah's relationship with Wes (a protective of her boys thing; she didn't care for Gwen going after Gunn either), or was it a moral high horse, or just the general jealousy that a woman who ends up being one of the guys sometimes has for a woman who is *all woman* (I know it took me years to get over myself on this one)? Of the non-evil people in Calvary, Fred and Lorne were the most antagonistic towards Lilah; like I said, Lorne had a good beef. Add in the extreme eye roll during the "holding hands" discussion though, and Fred's hate seemed excessive.

(I'm working on the theory that Fred's actions always meant something and were consistent. Consistency in Fred characterization was a weakness from the day she showed up, so that may be a weak basis).

[roseveare]

Gotta say, I think it goes both ways. Lilah's been very antagonistic right back towards Fred. That's what's so darned interesting about them as a 'ship. (Also, on that note, I can't figure why they're not more popular as a 'ship. Male characters who have the Big Hate towards each other must *always* assuredly be secretly gasping for each other in slashdom.)

Hmm, come to think of it, does Fred's extreme hatred of Lilah go back to finding her getting it on with 'Angel' in Carpe Noctum, so nothing to do with Wes at all? Or even before that, That Vision Thing was the first Lilah-as-villain story with Fred around, wasn't it, so her introduction to Lilah wasn't just as a dubious evil lawyer (which is a more benign-insidious type of human evil, really, as far as the show goes) like most of the rest of the gang, but actually an all-out villain who was arranging to psychically rip her friend to shreds - which I think is probably the nastiest and most downright mean and *personal* thing Lilah's done to any of the AI gang.

[nolivingman]

I don't think of Lilah as hating Fred so much as just displaying her usual contempt for earnest do-gooder types. Maybe the Wes jealousy crossed the line into hate.

My guess is that the lack of support for the ship is indicative of the smaller number of girl slashers,cause it makes no sense. Two good-looking women, lots of emotion between them, support in the text for both being at the very least bi-curious (I'm counting Fred's flirting with Willow as, well, flirting) and yet very little fic? Makes me sad. There's so little Angel girly-slash in general though that it's noticeable by absense.

Hmm, come to think of it, does Fred's extreme hatred of Lilah go back to finding her getting it on with 'Angel' in Carpe Noctum, so nothing to do with Wes at all?

I had forgotten that one altogether, but you're right - that was during the crush-on-Angel phase.
That has to have been what cemented the impression in Fred's mind - seeing her with Angel after knowing she was evil.

[roseveare]

I was thinking of Lilah's dislike of Fred in relation to Wesley. I think the way it gets personal (with the 'Twig' and the impersonations etc) indicates that their feelings are running along quite similar lines. Though, yeah, I think Fred probably hated Lilah before, and it only grew up into active dislike the other way around as Lilah got more involved with Wes. Thinking on it, I'm not sure Lilah thinks Fred significant enough as a threat in her own right (rather than in Wesley's mind) to actually *hate*... though there's clearly a significant level of ill-feeling involved on both sides... *ponders*

Lilah/Fred fic

[palmaceae]

Unlocked Doors by missmorganpryce. R, Lilah/Fred, Lilah/Wesley, Fred/Wesley. Written specially for this day (I think I really like Lilah/Fred now)

http://www.livejournal.com/users/50thousandtearz/14069.html

mini-essay: why I 'ship Fred/Lilah

[roseveare]

Suppose I ought to jump in here since I have a whole site (thanks, btw!) on them (and not yet any essay on why, which... um. Well, I might just recycle this post

[fox1013]

The Mouth You Wear, Lilah/Fred, hard R. Sartre got it right.