Ides of June: Meta Day 3

[jennyo]

Ladies and gentlemen, we're at the halfway point of the month, and I think it's not going badly

Comments

[nolivingman]

I don't get what makes Lilah "difficult" and I notice that women who are good at their careers and have their own opinions are frequently labelled difficult. I will agree that it would difficult to be in a relationship (of any kind) with Lilah if you didn't understand/respect/like that she was evil and ambitious, but she herself seems actually not-difficult. Do your job well; don't fault her for doing her job well - what more could you want from someone? Maybe this is my over-valuation of competence and forthrightness, but she seems anti-difficult to me. Perhaps her relationship with Wesley was difficult to him, but as she said in STB, that's really his issue

[jennyo]

It's okay; I think "difficult" is the label we put on women who don't like traditional feminine behaviors or value structures. I kind of use it ironically, because I value the fact that Lilah is clever, ambitious, and has more interest in getting a fair and balanced grip on the situation than anyone else on the show. I think she's funny, bright, and very talented.

I also think she's a cold-blooded killer who didn't feel a bit bad that Linwood had to die, and probably felt good about shooting Billy. And I don't know what I think about that, except that in the same situation she's in, under the same rationale, I might have done the same. I don't have the same interest in ultimate power as Lilah clearly does, though. I sympathize, as I've mentioned, with her being very angry about the man's world she lives in, but I'm not sure if her ends are worth it.

Lilah vs. Angel is tough, because Angel...really has no justification for damning Lilah. At all.

[paratti]

I think Lilah herself isn't difficult. She's a woman in a man's world and has to work twice as hard as a result, but that's not exactly uncommon. She's honest, and has a degree of openess in relationship that probably makes her uncomfortable that's she's making herself too vulnerable. She's Evil, but honest

[fox1013]

Oh, difficult

[nolivingman]

I don't know, doesn't intention count for something? I mean, I know Angel fucked up quite a bit and was not what one would call super-competent, but for the most part, he was trying to do good. Lilah for all that we love her, was trying to do evil for really no other reason that we saw other than wanting nice things. I'm not here to excuse everything Angel did (in particular I don't think he took enough shit for the reality shift after Home), but he was not the cause of Lilah's damnation. (He didn't help though, which is one of my beefs with him wrt Lilah. He only helped certain people.)

[fox1013]

I think there needs to be a sliding scale of Evil, though

[nolivingman]

Agreed on the sliding scale. Nobody's hands are clean here. And yeah, I'm having trouble formulating an argument one way or another as well. Which is cool with me, actually, cause I prefer the moral questions to have messy answers. (Hmmph. Maybe *I'm* difficult.)

[wickedprincess3]

Within the Jossverse Lilah is difficult because she's girl that does bad things and doesn't cry and sob for forgiveness over them. It's one thing to be Faith or Willow and kill people and then sob and spank your inner moppet for the rest of eternity, but to be a "bad girl" with no regret is very much the unforgivable sin in the Jossverse. That's why I think she is difficult. Though we *saw* Spike not show remorse and regret and yet he was on a "redemptive journey" though I think that has more to do with a lot of fangirl metanish where anyone blond and pretty with a penis can be redeemed

[jennyo]

*nod* ITA. Of course, I am again sort of like, "I don't know if I'd behave much differently in her circumstances" which is...a hard place, because I also think killing people is wrong, and helping steal babies, even annoying mystical brats? Wrong.

At the same time, I don't think she needs redemption in the Jossverse way. I would have liked to see Lilah realize all her quest for...whatever it is she really wanted...was kind of hurting her physically and wasn't really useful, and then gone from there without the tears of "I killed...some very bad people!" But that's neither here nor there, either.

[cathydalek]

I think Lilah would be classified as difficult in the Jossverse because she didn't acknowledge that Angel was always right and towards the end of both Angel and Buffy, you were difficult/wrong/bad if you didn't acknowledge that the title character was always right