Ok rising to Dr Starkey

Apr 05, 2009 13:06

So David Starkey said some stupid thing about how women have feminised history and focussed on wives at the expense of the the GREAT WHITE MEN who shaped EVERYTHING ( Read more... )

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Comments 30

highfantastical April 5 2009, 13:51:07 UTC
Fair Maid of Kent. Am totally partisan.

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slasheuse April 5 2009, 14:09:01 UTC
Okay, I have thirty, which overlaps with you a bit (I didn't include any I'd only have got from you, as cheating!) and which are in NO ORDER.

1. Sappho
2. Cleopatra,
3. Boudicca,
4. Empress Matilda
5. SAINT TERESA OF AVILA.
6. Margery Kempe,
7. Julian of Norwich,
8. Hildegarde of Bingen
9. Katherine Swynford
10. Catherine de Medici
11. Isabella of France
12. Anne Boleyn
13. Mary Tudor
14. Mary, Queen of Scots
15. Isabella of Castile
16. Margaret of Anjou
17. Margaret Beaufort
18. Elizabeth Woodville
19. Elizabeth I
20. Lady Jane Grey
21. Queen Mary (as in William and Mary)
22. Queen Anne
23. Christine de Pizan
24. Joanna, Queen of Jerusalem.
25. Bridget of Sweden
26. Joan of Arc
27. Marie Theresa of Austria
28. Eleanor of Acquitaine
29. Elizabeth Jocelin
30. Agrippina, mother of Nero.
And possibly Trotula.

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highfantastical April 5 2009, 15:09:24 UTC
I am totally telling Joan that you left her out. I MEAN IT.

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liminereid April 5 2009, 15:16:55 UTC
I have to admit , that while I was aware of the 'romantic' stuff about Joan I wasn't aware of her exercising power during Richard II's minority (until I just googled it.)

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liminereid April 5 2009, 15:12:07 UTC
That's pretty good. think I'll make fifty ok. Though some of yours I'd probably exclude but only on the grounds I'm not sure how much power they actually exercised. Lady Jane Grey, for example, I always understood as a tragic figurehead manipulated by the Dudleys rather than exercising power and claiming the throne in her own right, but perhaps that;s unfair of me. Similarly I didn't include Mary Queen of Scots in my first list because she always struck me as a bit helpless and useless, especially compared to her mother as Regent while she was growing up in France. On the flip side, that's part of the point in some ways isn't it? Weak male monarchs are studied so excluding weak females ones is just stupid and having her there underlines how good some of others had to be to even be remembered.
Similarly, with Queen Mary II, my memory was that she was pretty much overshadowed by William, not helped by her dying first so she was always co-regnant and never Queen on her own.

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anotherusedpage April 5 2009, 14:37:13 UTC
Dunno if biblical suggestions are ok, but:
Esther

Other than that:
Cleopatra
Olympias (mother of Alexander the great)

(I can't do 20 off the top of my head, but I don't think I could do 20 men, either...)

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liminereid April 5 2009, 15:13:46 UTC
I wasn't sure about biblical ones either, because I'm not sure how historical they are. Wanted to try and avoid 'legendary' figures as they can be more disputed.
I am overly geeky about 'great figures' history, a misspent childhood reading Jean Plaidy...

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deathbyshinies April 5 2009, 15:40:57 UTC
Isabel/Isabella/Isobel of Buchan! b. c.1270, d. after 1313. Tradition dicated that a king of Scotland *had* to be crowned by the heir of the MacDuffs, otherwise it wasn't a proper coronation and the rule would be illegitimate/bad luck etc. However, when it came time to crown Robert Bruce, the actual Earl was a rabid Balliol supporter. Isabella was next in line, so she ran away from her husband (who was also a Balliol supporter) and crowned Robert I on 25 March 1306! (She did get there a day late, so they had to do the ceremony again! :D). She was later caught by Edward I and hung outside the walls of Berwick Castle in a cage for anything between eight months and seven years (people disagree about how long it actually was: the DNB puts it as four which seems about right). Amazingly, she survived, and eventually lived out her life in a convent ( ... )

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deathbyshinies April 5 2009, 15:56:07 UTC
NB. Before anybody asks, yes, the cage did have a privy in it! :D

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liminereid April 5 2009, 15:59:48 UTC
Always good to know. Something similar happened to the two sons of Dafydd ap Gruffydd, who was the brother of Llywelyn the Last Prince of Wales. They lived out their lives in a cage in Bristol Castle I believe, while their dad became either the first person to be hanged drawn and quartered or the first royal to be killed in such a manner.

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liminereid April 5 2009, 15:57:56 UTC
THat is absolutely amazing. She has to go on my list. TBH I keep getting so many suggestions I'm tempted to see if I can do 100, I must be mad.

I was wondering if you'd want to sue it in some way? I wouldn't want to hijack but I thought it might be helpful or even something that might help as further links or whatever. Some of these are pretty obscure.

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robot_mel April 5 2009, 17:33:01 UTC
Hello - I was pointed to your post by sebastienne. I've got an MA in Chinese history and studied mostly women's history. So here are a few that popped into mind straight away ( ... )

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liminereid April 5 2009, 20:02:11 UTC
Thank you so much. I had thought of Hapshetsut but all the others were new to me.

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