Sounds like you've been reading some really bad fantasy lately ...
"The majority of fantasy protagonists face their demons, and their villains, alone in the end. They never work well with groups. They are almost always emotionally scarred and reluctant to trust, such that most secondary characters have to go to insane lengths to prove they’re good people. They don’t have strong support networks, and they’re deeply unappreciated by the world at large."
Heh. Mary Sue aka writers as protagonists mayhap?
"Being a princess and the wielder of Power X is enough for a good, crowded story, I would think, without the protagonist also having to be the granddaughter of the most powerful witch in the world, the wielder of a magical sword, the Sekrit Heir of the evil witch, and the lust object of the three most powerful men in the world."
Not so much bad fantasy, I think- for example, I quite liked Ysabel despite the teenage protagonist constantly shocking the immortals- as that I've just completely lost my taste for something I used to adore. I do still like scenes where the protagonist wins or tells someone off. I just despite it when it's the norm for character interaction. And lately, I've finished some books and, looking back, realized I really didn't like the protagonist as much as I thought I did; my heart belonged to some secondary character.
And lately, I've finished some books and, looking back, realized I really didn't like the protagonist as much as I thought I did; my heart belonged to some secondary character.
You have no idea how much I empathize with that. It seems that I'm constantly finishing books only to find out what happens to minor characters. One of the main reasons I love A Song of Ice and Fire books with loads of characters is that I never seem to like the one the author focuses on.
Is it wrong to want the rant about the Pink Unicorn?
Anyway, nothing really to add to this rant. Usually I save my 'inspiring awe' moments for children who don't know any better/it ends poorly when they try to imitate an adult who also should know better. Inspiring disgust, loathing and hatred moments, however, I seem to have a better handle on, so I leave the awe to evil.
Ah, but the rant about the Pink Unicorn would be easy to write! It is the oppression rant I fear. :)
It definitely works better with young protagonists. Adults who awe people all the time annoy me, because you'd think people would expect it more from them, based on age and reputation, and they'd also be more likely to have adult friends who knew them better. And adults addicted to awing people simply remind me of those two wankers I mentioned in the rant.
The single manifestation of this that bothers me the most is the part where the main character says something witty, shocking, clever, or whatever, and everyone else responds with…silence.
Of course, there's always the cold, disdainful silence. There's a world of difference between "Wow, she just turned the attacking dragon into a giant fireworks display" silence and "You fucking moron, I cannot believe you just slapped the high priestess on the ass during prayer" silence
Hopefully, the second one would be signaled somehow- a lift of eyebrows and an icy stare, perhaps. I think it's entirely possible that sometimes the silence a protagonist causes is meant to be like that, but the only reaction she ever receives is, "You wouldn't dare!" or similar silly lines. At least there should be consequences.
*nods* Robin Hobb's Tawny Man trilogy springs to mind. Several characters do outrageous things for various reasons, and usually takes hits to their reputations as a result. The main character kills three men and a horse in the middle of town (albeit for a fairly good reason). He is arrested, and while there is some admiration, a great deal of people are very uncomfortable with being in the same room with a bloke who, to be blunt, hacked up three people in their own home. And he squished their little dog, too.
the commitment to absolutely piling the protagonist with abilities, honors, titles, relationships to powerful and important people, and other “gifts.” Most of the time, she never gets to explore the full implications of them all, because too much else is going on in the story; she might never use some of them.
This does occur in my current draft in my novels--mainly, because most of the main characters have several special abilities, one of which used to be important in the distant history of the novel like, four years ago. But since most characters can do some of the extraordinary things he does, there's only two real 'powers' he has given the context of the story:
1) Is a highly skilled engineer, and 2) He is trained to be, essentially, a ninja
( ... )
I think some people assume I'm against multi-talented protagonists when I list things like this. I'm not. I just resent the abilities being treated as a means of awing the other characters, rather than as a means of giving the protagonist strengths and limitations, as well as advancing the plot. For example, the engineering skills you listed wouldn't help the protagonist in all situations, and the ninja skills wouldn't either (say, giving a public speech), but in some novels they become all that matter.
And, yes. If someone never fails, or if their only failures are caused by people holding them back, being jealous, etc., there's never truly a thrill of triumph.
Frankly, I'd like to read a story in which the ENGINEERING skills are the important ones, in which having a thorough grasp of physics, mechanics, and basic chemistry are what allows the protagonist to succeed, and the ninja skills are only useful in getting her into place to use the engineering skills.
I quite appreciate the rest of your plan for your character, though. Falure is good. Derpyness for teh win...
I am almost successfully resisting the impulse to quote the Engineer from Team Fortress 2.
And that slides into a consideration of power that’s usually applied to villains, but treated as distinctly secondary when it comes to protagonists: the other people the power affects. Okay, so the protagonist decides to practice with her magic, and calls a storm. Does she think about the crops ruined, the rivers flooded, the homes swept away? Nope. She needed to practice, and, because her heart is pure, her faceless victims do not matter, even when the villain’s are the main tool used to get the “good side” in motion.
Yes, yes. SO much yes. This should be included in espionage or superhero fiction as well, because countless of people are slaughtered in order to save the hero's lover, family, or friend. It annoys me so much because it's like, no, you're not special enough to be saved. /rant
Also, you write on how NOT to make a Mary-Sue, which I find very useful. Great rant.
The weird thing is that, on the surface, so many protagonists do follow a belief system that's about balance in the magical world, or consequences for one's actions. That just never seems to actually get applied to them. It happens to the villains, and enemy mages can screw the world up by taking whatever they need for their magic with no thought to the problems, but the hero/ine takes whatever she needs, and it never causes a problem.
Writing non-Mary Sues can be a dangerous task with high-powered protagonists, I think. Glad if it helps!
Watch out for that Axiomatic Longsword, Targondove_cgApril 8 2007, 05:23:38 UTC
I think the key problem is that most people don't have a proper grasp on the lawful/neutral/chaotic axis of their character. Yes, it's a D&D sort of term/design but it's quite appropriate really. Most people believe their characters are lawful and then make them act neutral or chaotic instead because they don't understand how that sort of thing works and, hence, they just don't have a proper handle on their character's moral ethics. If any of that made an ounce of sense. XD
The D&D alighnments can get too restrictive, and also requires you to think that there are good and bad forms of neutral concepts rather than simple balance or imbalance, which is the base of the philosophy: if one has too much Law in their character, they may seek strength in unity with people like them, set about forcing the world into their set of rules, and invade Poland - a separate "bad" does't come into it. "Chaotic good/evil" is also an oxymoron - Chaos, by its nature, doesn't give a damn. (You might well know all of the above, I'm just ranting for clarity's sake)
You can be well aware of your characters' biases towards one side or other, I always have been, but no-one is entirely one way or other save gods and raving lunatics. Use the guidelines loosely and don't paste good/evil in from elsewhere... (")
Comments 120
"The majority of fantasy protagonists face their demons, and their villains, alone in the end. They never work well with groups. They are almost always emotionally scarred and reluctant to trust, such that most secondary characters have to go to insane lengths to prove they’re good people. They don’t have strong support networks, and they’re deeply unappreciated by the world at large."
Heh. Mary Sue aka writers as protagonists mayhap?
"Being a princess and the wielder of Power X is enough for a good, crowded story, I would think, without the protagonist also having to be the granddaughter of the most powerful witch in the world, the wielder of a magical sword, the Sekrit Heir of the evil witch, and the lust object of the three most powerful men in the world."
ROFL I love it! I wanna be this girl!
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You have no idea how much I empathize with that. It seems that I'm constantly finishing books only to find out what happens to minor characters. One of the main reasons I love A Song of Ice and Fire books with loads of characters is that I never seem to like the one the author focuses on.
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Anyway, nothing really to add to this rant. Usually I save my 'inspiring awe' moments for children who don't know any better/it ends poorly when they try to imitate an adult who also should know better. Inspiring disgust, loathing and hatred moments, however, I seem to have a better handle on, so I leave the awe to evil.
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It definitely works better with young protagonists. Adults who awe people all the time annoy me, because you'd think people would expect it more from them, based on age and reputation, and they'd also be more likely to have adult friends who knew them better. And adults addicted to awing people simply remind me of those two wankers I mentioned in the rant.
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Of course, there's always the cold, disdainful silence. There's a world of difference between "Wow, she just turned the attacking dragon into a giant fireworks display" silence and "You fucking moron, I cannot believe you just slapped the high priestess on the ass during prayer" silence
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This does occur in my current draft in my novels--mainly, because most of the main characters have several special abilities, one of which used to be important in the distant history of the novel like, four years ago. But since most characters can do some of the extraordinary things he does, there's only two real 'powers' he has given the context of the story:
1) Is a highly skilled engineer, and
2) He is trained to be, essentially, a ninja ( ... )
Reply
And, yes. If someone never fails, or if their only failures are caused by people holding them back, being jealous, etc., there's never truly a thrill of triumph.
Reply
I quite appreciate the rest of your plan for your character, though. Falure is good. Derpyness for teh win...
I am almost successfully resisting the impulse to quote the Engineer from Team Fortress 2.
Reply
Yes, yes. SO much yes. This should be included in espionage or superhero fiction as well, because countless of people are slaughtered in order to save the hero's lover, family, or friend. It annoys me so much because it's like, no, you're not special enough to be saved. /rant
Also, you write on how NOT to make a Mary-Sue, which I find very useful. Great rant.
Reply
Writing non-Mary Sues can be a dangerous task with high-powered protagonists, I think. Glad if it helps!
Reply
Reply
You can be well aware of your characters' biases towards one side or other, I always have been, but no-one is entirely one way or other save gods and raving lunatics. Use the guidelines loosely and don't paste good/evil in from elsewhere... (")
Reply
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