also came here via FW -> Lee -> you ... nice job over there, even though it really is ultimately futile. Lee and his cohorts seem to have fairly limited logical faculties and return to the same three ideas (most of them problematic if not faulty) again and again. No amount of sane reasoning (like you tried) leads to anything!
FWIW, if you're interested, there's some decent stuff that actually addresses the copyright issue (b/c even *that*'s not fully decided), for example, here. And as you point out, the moral/ethical issue is *far* from solved (as a postmodern literary critic, I am utterly bemused by the ownership he asserts for authors...).
I realize the whole discussion is pretty futile-especially since Mr. Goldberg (who is, after all, the one who keeps starting these threads) refuses to engage. He just keeps copying and pasting earlier, and largely irrelevant, responses. And it's a bit like playing "whack a mole" when new people pop up with the same arguments over and over. But my current field (biology) is so dry, that it's actually kind of fun to do the kind of writing I haven't had much of a chance at since college Lit and History classes.
The scary part is that most of those guys are writers. These are people who produce literature (sort of) for a living and they don't understand the basic issues about their profession. Not that they need to agree with me particularly, but that they are issues, with multiple sides and dissenting opinions. Which could potentially effect how they do their work. sigh
( ... )
Kudos for trying to bring some sanity and logic into the debate over at Lee's blog. Many have valiantly tried to argue the fic writers' point, but people tend to give up after the umpteenth iteration. This whole 'debate' is so very circular. Each time someone raises a tired old argument, I'm tempted to just link back to the dozens of occasions where someone already countered that very same point on that very same blog.
Like someone said, Lee isn't interested in debate, he's interested in bashing. No point arguing with that. But it's nice to hear a voice of reason inmidst the Kylers and Richards (aka Rick the Prick).
Thank you! It's nice to know people appreciate the argument. Even if it is like playing whack-a-mole.
Whereas I ran across this last night, and immediately started wondering which one I was most like. Personally I think Mr. Goldberg is the perfect Artful Dodger, but perhaps I shouldn't point too many fingers. ;-)
Haha. Great link, thanks. The illustrations are terrific, too. I amused myself browsing thought the Flame Warrior Roster, and recognised them all from various kerfuffles over the years.
Maybe later I'll fool around with it some more, try to find a category for Nothosonomia and that Richard person... well, Rick's probably just your run-of-the-mill troll but Nothosonomia should be harder to place.
Hello and Congratulations!jael_the_scribeSeptember 3 2006, 18:56:58 UTC
Hello, Lost Erizo! Do you know that you are my hero? The wind beneath my wings? :)
I hope you don't mind my friending you.
I followed the various discussions on Goldberg's blog, but I stayed silent, preferring not to be chewed up and sent through Mr. Goldberg's digestive system, metaphorically speaking.
I've been interested in the subject of fair use and copyright since I wrote for the old print fanzines. The consensus back then was that fanfiction fell within fair use as long as it was not for profit -- but rather for 'educational' purposes.
I see Mr. Goldberg believes otherwise. For someone who seems to write using other people's characters, he lives in a glass house. Paid or not.
Re: Hello and Congratulations!lost_erizoSeptember 6 2006, 01:47:15 UTC
Do you know that you are my hero? The wind beneath my wings? :)
*blushes*
Thank you :-)
Yeah, Mr. Goldberg doesn't have a lot of room to talk about "creativity" does he?
I think he may actually be right about the legality of it - although it's never really been tested and from what I've read (secondary sources - I'm a scientist not a lawyer) the courts have been increasingly lenient towards derivative work (as opposed to outright copying, which has become a hot button issue with the internet). But I got into it because of the ethical issue. As a practical issue I don't think that anyone can control fanfic - there's too much of it, almost all of it's written under pseudonyms and if theres a major crackdown people will just start hosting it on overseas servers. So it becomes up to the fans to self-police and decide if their actions are defensible.
Besides, it drives me nuts when people spout off about legalities without asking what the law was meant to do. That just leads to circular arguments and people who justify
( ... )
Wandered over here from Lee Goldberg's blog. You totally rock. Your arguments were calm and logical and didn't get into personalities, and for that I thank you.
I notice that Lee and his cohorts never delve into Joss's terriotry, where he explicitly said "Write fanfic" when asked what the fans should do now that our shows are over with. Heh.
I write Firefly fic mainly these days, with some Angel and Buffy thrown in on occasion. Do you mind if I friend you?
Hey, I don't know if you get email notifications and I've deleted the post now, but I wanted to say sorry about the sga dl link. I didn't realize it wasn't the full one until afterwards. Sorry that you wasted your time on it. I'm getting a new (full one) up now.
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FWIW, if you're interested, there's some decent stuff that actually addresses the copyright issue (b/c even *that*'s not fully decided), for example, here. And as you point out, the moral/ethical issue is *far* from solved (as a postmodern literary critic, I am utterly bemused by the ownership he asserts for authors...).
Reply
I realize the whole discussion is pretty futile-especially since Mr. Goldberg (who is, after all, the one who keeps starting these threads) refuses to engage. He just keeps copying and pasting earlier, and largely irrelevant, responses. And it's a bit like playing "whack a mole" when new people pop up with the same arguments over and over. But my current field (biology) is so dry, that it's actually kind of fun to do the kind of writing I haven't had much of a chance at since college Lit and History classes.
The scary part is that most of those guys are writers. These are people who produce literature (sort of) for a living and they don't understand the basic issues about their profession. Not that they need to agree with me particularly, but that they are issues, with multiple sides and dissenting opinions. Which could potentially effect how they do their work. sigh ( ... )
Reply
Like someone said, Lee isn't interested in debate, he's interested in bashing. No point arguing with that. But it's nice to hear a voice of reason inmidst the Kylers and Richards (aka Rick the Prick).
Reply
Whereas I ran across this last night, and immediately started wondering which one I was most like. Personally I think Mr. Goldberg is the perfect Artful Dodger, but perhaps I shouldn't point too many fingers. ;-)
Reply
Maybe later I'll fool around with it some more, try to find a category for Nothosonomia and that Richard person... well, Rick's probably just your run-of-the-mill troll but Nothosonomia should be harder to place.
Reply
I hope you don't mind my friending you.
I followed the various discussions on Goldberg's blog, but I stayed silent, preferring not to be chewed up and sent through Mr. Goldberg's digestive system, metaphorically speaking.
I've been interested in the subject of fair use and copyright since I wrote for the old print fanzines. The consensus back then was that fanfiction fell within fair use as long as it was not for profit -- but rather for 'educational' purposes.
I see Mr. Goldberg believes otherwise. For someone who seems to write using other people's characters, he lives in a glass house. Paid or not.
Reply
*blushes*
Thank you :-)
Yeah, Mr. Goldberg doesn't have a lot of room to talk about "creativity" does he?
I think he may actually be right about the legality of it - although it's never really been tested and from what I've read (secondary sources - I'm a scientist not a lawyer) the courts have been increasingly lenient towards derivative work (as opposed to outright copying, which has become a hot button issue with the internet). But I got into it because of the ethical issue. As a practical issue I don't think that anyone can control fanfic - there's too much of it, almost all of it's written under pseudonyms and if theres a major crackdown people will just start hosting it on overseas servers. So it becomes up to the fans to self-police and decide if their actions are defensible.
Besides, it drives me nuts when people spout off about legalities without asking what the law was meant to do. That just leads to circular arguments and people who justify ( ... )
Reply
I notice that Lee and his cohorts never delve into Joss's terriotry, where he explicitly said "Write fanfic" when asked what the fans should do now that our shows are over with. Heh.
I write Firefly fic mainly these days, with some Angel and Buffy thrown in on occasion. Do you mind if I friend you?
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