Discussion: Army of Ghosts and Doomsday
A discussion - all welcome - on the final two episodes of last season's Dr Who. Answer or comment on every number, or just choose the ones that engage you. Happy New Year!
Hopefully The Runaway Bride will follow...
ARMY OF GHOSTS
1. Well, the first and only question really on this double-episode is this: At what point does the Doctor decide Rose must go to the other dimension and leave him? He is plainly not making the decision in the scene where the choice comes up. So, when does he?
2. The "ghosts" are nebulous images that extract energy from people's desire to be again with their loved ones and the happiness they experience when they believe they are. How does this metaphor run through the double-episode (not only in relation to D/R but also Mickey, Jackie and Pete)?
3. What exactly does the Doctor mean by "a footprint doesn't look like a boot"?
4. Does Jackie's speech, "You've changed so much...it won't be Rose Tyler" have any impact on Rose? Does it somehow have an impact on the Doctor, although he doesn't appear to hear it? How important to him are the qualities Rose came in with, vs what she's becoming?
5. When they arrive at Torchwood, does the Doctor present Jackie as Rose so that Rose can get their backs, or to protect Rose?
6. Yvonne Hartman, head of Torchwood, is a NeoCon. They're [re]building a British Empire. Discuss in relation to the NeoCons in power in London and Washington?
7. Warning: Probable Torchwood spoilers in comments on to this one. Torchwood's slogan, "If it's alien, it's ours." Viewers of Torchwood who also saw the end of The Christmas Invasion, should therefore not be surprised at what Jack has preserved in his test tube.
8. Doctor: Does this mean I'm a prisoner. Yvonne (briskly): Oh yes, but we'll make you perfectly comfortable.
What does this exchange say about Torchwood's ethos? In particular, about its attitude to other life forms v the Doctor's attitude to humans?
9. Are your views changed or confirmed by Torchwood's initial refusal to believe they don't have control of the "ghosts"? What does the stand-off between Yvonne and the Doctor at this point tell you about him?
DOOMSDAY
10. Is there any additional significance in the sphere's being called The Genesis Ark (what with Noah's Ark being in Genesis and all)? How does this fit with the final revelation that it was a prison ship?
11. The Doctor gives Jackie his word he will "get you and your daughter home". Is he already resigned to losing Rose here?
12. I just have to acknowledge two of my favourite TV lines of 1996:
Mickey, watching the Cybermen talking to the Daleks: It's like Stephen Hawking meeting the Talking Clock.
and
Dalek: This is not war, this is pest control. (Am I wrong to love the Daleks?)
13. a) The Cybermen have frequently been compared by critics to the Nazis and other fascist groups prone to all think the same, march about in phalanxes and kill people without making any attempt to get at the truth (which would include Stalin's and Mao's Communists). Do you agree with this, and whether you do or not, do you think they have any relevance to today's world?
b) So, in the light of what you think the Cybermen represent, what are the Daleks?
14. While we're on this, I've said this before but in case of new readers... I strongly believe Davies is writing a deliberate mythology based on today's international situation, at least insofar as "Bad Wolf" represents a lurking, fathomless evil (such as actual terrorism on the one hand or totally invented Weapons of Mass Destruction on the other), while "Torchwood" represents a paranoid response to Bad Wolf (such as, *whistles*). The Doctor, meanwhile, represents a rational yet essentially optimistic response to Bad Wolf. (Such as sensible people who hold no office but might have power if, like Rose, they learned how to exert it.)
Do you agree/disagree? Do your answers to 13 change in the light of that?
15. Have Mickey and his BF broken up? (The BF seems to drop out of the picture suddenly at the end - did he get killed and I didn't notice?)
16. I viewed it as very significant that the Doctor's argument to involve Pete in ourEarth's problems was that, now that he's achieving so much, he shouldn't have to fight alone - that he should have Jackie beside him. Is this also what he's thinking about himself and Rose: or, by contrast, is he already thinking he's going to give Rose to Pete as well? If so, how does that colour this speech from the Doctor's POV?
Rose is in the act of saying, "He does it alone, Mum. But not any more, because now he's got me" when the Doctor puts the pendant round her neck. He lets her be distracted by her speech so it's too late to save herself when she notices.
17. Are you convinced by the "pull" of Parallelworlds Jackie and Pete for each other?
18. Rose, on returning: "I made my choice a long time ago, and I'm never going to leave you." One for the real afficionados - When did she make that choice? Which episode of which series?
19. What do you make of the fact that Yvonne's sense of duty (which sounds like the Nuremberg defence - I was only following orders - when she is led away by the Cybermen) is in fact so powerful that it remains after her "upgrade" and allows her to thwart the Cybermen?
20. "I'm burning up a sun just to say good-bye."
Hands up all those who think that says ILY better than "It's only time."? (Apologies to non-QAF Who fans, who won't get that - but please feel free to comment on the Doctor's remark either way.)
21. I gave it a standing ovation that, not only did we finally find out what Bad Wolf really was, but that he linked it to the Daleks and to hell (Rose is not physically in the Void, but emotionally they both are). Comments on the last Dr/Rose scene?
22. Once we're standing on that beach in Norway, think back to all the Bad Wolf references in both series. What can we now understand as the significance of Rose writing Bad Wolf to herself all those times?
Hopefully The Runaway Bride will follow...
ARMY OF GHOSTS
1. Well, the first and only question really on this double-episode is this: At what point does the Doctor decide Rose must go to the other dimension and leave him? He is plainly not making the decision in the scene where the choice comes up. So, when does he?
2. The "ghosts" are nebulous images that extract energy from people's desire to be again with their loved ones and the happiness they experience when they believe they are. How does this metaphor run through the double-episode (not only in relation to D/R but also Mickey, Jackie and Pete)?
3. What exactly does the Doctor mean by "a footprint doesn't look like a boot"?
4. Does Jackie's speech, "You've changed so much...it won't be Rose Tyler" have any impact on Rose? Does it somehow have an impact on the Doctor, although he doesn't appear to hear it? How important to him are the qualities Rose came in with, vs what she's becoming?
5. When they arrive at Torchwood, does the Doctor present Jackie as Rose so that Rose can get their backs, or to protect Rose?
6. Yvonne Hartman, head of Torchwood, is a NeoCon. They're [re]building a British Empire. Discuss in relation to the NeoCons in power in London and Washington?
7. Warning: Probable Torchwood spoilers in comments on to this one. Torchwood's slogan, "If it's alien, it's ours." Viewers of Torchwood who also saw the end of The Christmas Invasion, should therefore not be surprised at what Jack has preserved in his test tube.
8. Doctor: Does this mean I'm a prisoner. Yvonne (briskly): Oh yes, but we'll make you perfectly comfortable.
What does this exchange say about Torchwood's ethos? In particular, about its attitude to other life forms v the Doctor's attitude to humans?
9. Are your views changed or confirmed by Torchwood's initial refusal to believe they don't have control of the "ghosts"? What does the stand-off between Yvonne and the Doctor at this point tell you about him?
DOOMSDAY
10. Is there any additional significance in the sphere's being called The Genesis Ark (what with Noah's Ark being in Genesis and all)? How does this fit with the final revelation that it was a prison ship?
11. The Doctor gives Jackie his word he will "get you and your daughter home". Is he already resigned to losing Rose here?
12. I just have to acknowledge two of my favourite TV lines of 1996:
Mickey, watching the Cybermen talking to the Daleks: It's like Stephen Hawking meeting the Talking Clock.
and
Dalek: This is not war, this is pest control. (Am I wrong to love the Daleks?)
13. a) The Cybermen have frequently been compared by critics to the Nazis and other fascist groups prone to all think the same, march about in phalanxes and kill people without making any attempt to get at the truth (which would include Stalin's and Mao's Communists). Do you agree with this, and whether you do or not, do you think they have any relevance to today's world?
b) So, in the light of what you think the Cybermen represent, what are the Daleks?
14. While we're on this, I've said this before but in case of new readers... I strongly believe Davies is writing a deliberate mythology based on today's international situation, at least insofar as "Bad Wolf" represents a lurking, fathomless evil (such as actual terrorism on the one hand or totally invented Weapons of Mass Destruction on the other), while "Torchwood" represents a paranoid response to Bad Wolf (such as, *whistles*). The Doctor, meanwhile, represents a rational yet essentially optimistic response to Bad Wolf. (Such as sensible people who hold no office but might have power if, like Rose, they learned how to exert it.)
Do you agree/disagree? Do your answers to 13 change in the light of that?
15. Have Mickey and his BF broken up? (The BF seems to drop out of the picture suddenly at the end - did he get killed and I didn't notice?)
16. I viewed it as very significant that the Doctor's argument to involve Pete in ourEarth's problems was that, now that he's achieving so much, he shouldn't have to fight alone - that he should have Jackie beside him. Is this also what he's thinking about himself and Rose: or, by contrast, is he already thinking he's going to give Rose to Pete as well? If so, how does that colour this speech from the Doctor's POV?
Rose is in the act of saying, "He does it alone, Mum. But not any more, because now he's got me" when the Doctor puts the pendant round her neck. He lets her be distracted by her speech so it's too late to save herself when she notices.
17. Are you convinced by the "pull" of Parallelworlds Jackie and Pete for each other?
18. Rose, on returning: "I made my choice a long time ago, and I'm never going to leave you." One for the real afficionados - When did she make that choice? Which episode of which series?
19. What do you make of the fact that Yvonne's sense of duty (which sounds like the Nuremberg defence - I was only following orders - when she is led away by the Cybermen) is in fact so powerful that it remains after her "upgrade" and allows her to thwart the Cybermen?
20. "I'm burning up a sun just to say good-bye."
Hands up all those who think that says ILY better than "It's only time."? (Apologies to non-QAF Who fans, who won't get that - but please feel free to comment on the Doctor's remark either way.)
21. I gave it a standing ovation that, not only did we finally find out what Bad Wolf really was, but that he linked it to the Daleks and to hell (Rose is not physically in the Void, but emotionally they both are). Comments on the last Dr/Rose scene?
22. Once we're standing on that beach in Norway, think back to all the Bad Wolf references in both series. What can we now understand as the significance of Rose writing Bad Wolf to herself all those times?