DW/QAF crossover post: Is Fanfic Inherently a Bad Thing?

[lucinda428]

I'm indebted to larissa_j for kicking off this train of thought. She posted a rant about shipper wars in the Dr Who fandom which set me thinking about the role of fandom, and particularly fanfic, in relation to canon.

Comments

[larissa_j]

I agree and I don't agree. I think most of this has to do with how honest you are with yourself when you're reading fanfic. If you actually expect fanfiction to be a part of canon, perhaps it's best if you step back from fandom for a short time. That being said, you have some excellent points.

Even a gapfiller gives information the writers didn't give: whether it is the sort of information they would have given if they HAD written that scene has always to be a matter of conjecture.

This is very true and it was never more true than in QAF. How many episodes were missing important scenes and fanfic writers came along to fill them in? Sorry, but sometimes in QAF, fans felt they needed gapfillers to keep their sanity. You're right, the canon writers didn't intend to give us that information, it didn't stop the fans from wanting to fill that gaping hole. Fanfic writers aren't the evil of fandom. It's people who can't distinguish between what they've read in fanfic and what they've seen on the screen.

In Doctor Who, there are a few

[jane2005]

I like your response better because I went all theoretical with reading theory. I am very pleased to see we pretty much were responding at the same time. I think we ARE the same person!

If you actually expect fanfiction to be a part of canon, perhaps it's best if you step back from fandom for a short time

Yep.

Look, I like a good romance story as much as anyone else (any woman) but let's not be stupid about it. This is Doctor Who! Although, you've never convince me that the whole B/M|B/J thing wasn't a marketing ploy.

I like Dr. Who. I WATCH Dr. Who, though I'm not in the fandom (I do enjoy watching you fan, though!). But really, while I know Rose and the Doctor were involved and loved each other, and I can see how people ship them as a couple, for me, it's not on the screen, so it just isn't there for me. I find the story lines much more engaging, the characters wonderful. But for me, there isn't enough to work with because I need some jumping off point. Like Brian and Justin literally fucking on screen. *leaps*

Part of the

[larissa_j]

I like your response better because I went all theoretical with reading theory. I am very pleased to see we pretty much were responding at the same time. I think we ARE the same person!

Ah, I like your responses better because you sound smarter :D

We are the same person.

But for me, there isn't enough to work with because I need some jumping off point. Like Brian and Justin literally fucking on screen. *leaps*

Well, you're not going to get that with Doctor Who, ever. As David says "no shagging in the TARDIS" and it's schedule prevents that kind of thing. Still, The Runaway Bride and The Shakespeare Code did a very good job of indicating that the feelings were remarkably strong. He did love her.

OMG they were the biggest hack-writing whore team in the history of tv. *suppresses rant*

*snickers* I'm serious, sometimes I think the shipper wars are the only thing that kept that show going. We were blind, I tell you. BLIND!

just don't have the energy to do fandom again. At least, not at the moment. Who knows, maybe they'll get a

[lucinda428]

*snickers* I'm serious, sometimes I think the shipper wars are the only thing that kept that show going. We were blind, I tell you. BLIND!Oh, not true! There were always some dodgy bits (especially in the, ahem, comedy), but even RTD would probably tell you they did some lovely stuff in the first season and the first half of the second, and certainly they made his story of unrequited love an unforgettable romance (albeit not between the same characters). To the point where, as we know, he recently purloined their imagery. And the end of Season 3 was a perfect ending for what they'd started

[jane2005]

Well, I've only ever been involved in QAF fanfic, specifically B/J, where romance/sex WAS the story, as far as I was concerned (long before I got involved in the fandom/fic, I would skip over S2 DVDs to just watch the B/J scenes - the sex/romance, and skipped pretty much all else). What I was looking for wasn't in the show - which is why I went on line looking for stories that would hold what I wanted to see. So in my particular case, it wasn't fic that drove me from the show - more the other way around. As for the shipper wars - can't really address that

[larissa_j]

I've never been involved in another fandom and/or fics. However, I can definitely say that there are a LOT of shows that I've completely gone sour on because they didn't hold my expectations, and I'd never read any fic on them.

I've only read fic in a few fandoms. I've been disappointed by many shows. My disappointment in QAF had nothing to do with fic.

OTOH, I can't imagine shipping a couple that's yoked together purely in my imagination and not on the screen or text

I've done this but only on rare occasions. Generally, for me, the couple must be canon. Some people think that shipping strictly by canon implies that you lack imagination and yet when shipper wars erupt and people use canon to prove a point, the non-canon shippers get angry.

It's stupid.

Right, have I mentioned that I hate shipper wars :D

I may have a dissertation coming out of this, btw. Can you tell I'm deep in my reading year?

Nah, not a clue. *whimpers* But... but... I'm good with hardware :D

[jane2005]

Generally, for me, the couple must be canon. Some people think that shipping strictly by canon implies that you lack imagination and yet when shipper wars erupt and people use canon to prove a point, the non-canon shippers get angry.Personally, I believe that arguments are more legitimate when they actually ground themselves in the original text. "Lack imagination..." That's patently absurd, and I find myself sort of stuttering mentally here, trying to absorb the sheer ridiculousness to address it. See, now, this is what I loathe about the shipper wars - they turn into personal attacks, and people stop talking about THE WRITING or the arguments per se. I can say, "you're not grounding your argument in the text..." and someone will scream, "YOU'RE ATTACKING ME!" which confuses the fuck out of me because I thought I was talking about "YOUR ARGUMENT" not "YOU

[lucinda428]

I may have a dissertation coming out of this, btw.

I hope you find my responses below thought-provoking. I'm from the pre-postmodernism generation (though I did read PoMo novels in French class before the philosphy took hold broadly), and like all big new paradigms it's offensive to those educated in paradigms that came earlier in its determination to belittle and misrepresent what they actually offered. (So if I sound stroppy, it's not with you but with PoMo itself.)

However, I can definitely say that there are a LOT of shows that I've completely gone sour on because they didn't hold my expectations, and I'd never read any fic on them.Absolutely. I think that's what happened with QAF. You don't have to be in a fandom to go off a show - in fact, most people quite quickly go off most shows they try out. I tried really hard to like Lost because a lot of QAF fans wanted to go there, but it was really clear by half-way through Season 1 the writers were making it up as they went along so I jumped ship; but I never read a thing about

[veryshortlist]

JK Rowling hasn't suffered that much from fanfic. If anything, she wasn't seen as a credible writer at the start of her career, and now that she's richer than the queen mum, people don't call her writing ability into question. At least not as much.

[lucinda428]

Oh gosh, I've seen heaps of people on the Net complaining they've given up on the novels because they fall so far short of the fanfic, and I don't even go into the fandom itself, because I'm frightened of it too!

OTOH I admit that JKR, being richer than the queen, apparently personally happy and writing up an ending she has always apparently had in mind, probably isn't suffering too much in any real sense!

[veryshortlist]

Ah, I see your point. I hated Order of the Phenix, which I read after three years of reading fanfic in between books. That does not mean that I love the books any less. The fact that I haven't actively bought an HP book in years doesn't mean that I love it any less. It's just that, coming from fanfic, I have higher expectations.

Yeah, the sheer amount of bad fic is very scary. Some of it is okay, though. There are several I've read that can be read over again, a rare thing, even with published books.

[lucinda428]

It's just that, coming from fanfic, I have higher expectations.

See, I would argue that what you have, from reading fanfic, are expectations that Rowling write a different story from the one she always intended.

How can you say you hated OOTP but that doesn't mean you love the books any less??

[court1429]

In the end, the keenest fans start rejecting canon for no other reason than because it has failed to meet expectations at which it may once have hinted, but which have become solid expectations only through fanfic. Thus, I conclude that fanfic is, in the end, always a bad thing for canon.

I have only ever been in the QAF fandom so I'm not sure that fic is always bad for canon, but the point is interesting. I will say that the end of QAF definitely failed to meet my expectations and I absolutely needed post-series fanfic to give me the ending to the episodes (and continuation of the relationship) that I wanted to see. I've wondered if the series hadn't ended so ambiguously (at the least) or painfully (at the most), if we'd have as much fic still being written as we do.

The other aspect that chills me a bit is that most fanfic leads to shipper wars because it revolves around romance, and often in relation to canon where romance is totally not the point.I think this is probably true just from hearing people on my flist talk about

[jane2005]

I've wondered if the series hadn't ended so ambiguously (at the least) or painfully (at the most), if we'd have as much fic still being written as we do.

I think the fic would be different - I also think that there wouldn't have been the huge fan flight that there was at the end of the show, and I think a lot of BNF's might still be putting stuff out - that continued the story. A huge majority of the people I know from the old days had their love killed by the ending.

Personal, I'm a little tired of fic fixing 513. It's getting very repetitive, and is feeling, to me, sort of like a 513!PTSD.

[lucinda428]

ITA. There'd still be fic but it'd be very different, and by no means so focussed on reimagining the ending.

We always suspected that Cowlip wrote that ending to cripple the fandom because it wasn't the demographic they wanted, and you have to hand it to them - they did that really well. 80% of it packed up within six months, and those remaining can't get past the ending, as Jane says.

[court1429]

I think the fic would be different - I also think that there wouldn't have been the huge fan flight that there was at the end of the show, and I think a lot of BNF's might still be putting stuff out - that continued the story. A huge majority of the people I know from the old days had their love killed by the ending.

These are interesting points. I know I missed out on a lot by not finding the show until a couple weeks before season 5 began and having no clue of fandom or fic until after the show ended. Although I don't think I'm sorry to have missed a lot of the wank and shipper wars that occurred. I really like a number of the new writers, but I'd sure like to see some of my favorites who've stopped (count yourself among them, missy) still writing.

Personal, I'm a little tired of fic fixing 513. It's getting very repetitive, and is feeling, to me, sort of like a 513!PTSD.

For post-series fic to be written, though, don't the writers sort of *have* to find a way around what looked to so many of us as an ending?

[stillife]

Interesting topic. I read Larissa's post with amusement the other day because I share her frustration with shippers in other fandoms.

Fanfic allows people who like a show to get really obsessive about it, by constantly feeding the obsession, either by reading it or by writing it as well. Canon, being expensive to produce, is rare, whereas fanfic is cheap and there's a virtually endless supply. Canon therefore has far less cumulative power.

I agree and disagree with this. People who read fanfic have already crossed the line into obsessiveness, IMO. You don't read fanfic because you just "like" a show, you read it because it's filling a need that's not being met by canon. If you're basically happy with a show and trust the writers, you're willing to go along for the ride. I think the obsession is initially fed by online forums like TWoP where like-minded nutjobs fans discuss/obsess/speculate about their favorite characters and pairings. Once you reach a certain level of obsession with the pairing and dissatisfaction with the

[jane2005]

I'm on the outside looking in at the crazy shippers.

Bwah! Huh. Yeah, I remember the comments you sent me on the Jam thing - which seemed incredibly silly. But, yep, pretty much familiar, only from the outside looking in.

But Jam is totally unlike B/J which made so much sense OMG!!!! I think the fucking on screen thing raised teh crazie to a whole new level, though. Which it remains at. I really do NOT want to read fans getting off in their posts. What in the world? But they do. Ick.

Heh. Thanks for the alternate perspective, interesting.

[lucinda428]

I think the fucking on screen thing raised teh crazie to a whole new level, though.

Yes. The acknowledged-by-everyone strength of the chemistry between Gale and Randy is a second X-factor that I'm sure made the mix more incendiary than for any other show.

[lucinda428]

Great to hear from you! (I should post more often.)

I think the obsession is initially fed by online forums like TWoP where like-minded nutjobs fans discuss/obsess/speculate about their favorite characters and pairings.

The role of TWoP has been much discussed in one of my other fandoms, where canon has actually taken shots at it. It's like the Death Star - it seems to be dedicated to destroying any show on which it focuses, and you can actually get banned for sticking up for the show. A most peculiar psychology. Even in the QAF fandom, we all basically supported it for the first three seasons, whereas on TWoP the knives seem to be out on new shows from Day 1.

I completely agree that forums like that, and even some LJ communities, do obsess over every little thing in a show till nothing is in proportion, but at least they're usually overmagnifying stuff that is there, rather than going down a whole new path.

You're right, it's not just fanfic, but once you start reading fanfic you should know you're going under for the third