Hard Core Logo...meta?
State of Lyra
Of the sublime:
1. Watching Hard Core Logo with rageprufrock and serialkarma is the best thing ever. So are orange rolls.
2. Unexpectedly getting flowers from a student. Pretty yellow and purple flowers, brightening up my apartment.
3. Having the day off work tomorrow. Ahhh, life. Ahhh, bed. Ahhh, wireless internet.
Of the un-sublime:
1. Melting as I walk the eight blocks home from work. Christ is it hot out there.
2. You know, I can't think of anything else that is un-sublime. Huh. That's cool.
So I got home and read over my friends list and came across this great discussion from dsudis about Hard Core Logo. (There are spoilers in that link).
I went to comment to her, and then I realized that it was going to be waaaay too long, so I thought I'd put out my thoughts here. Spoilers ahoy.
Yeah, okay, so in the end it's love, but what *kind* of love? Billy and Joe have the most fucked-up, co-dependent, emotionally unstable relationship I've ever seen. But you know what? They *really fucking love each other*. Fiercely, crazily, and forever. It's not a fairytale, it's not a romance any of us would probably want. It's not even *sane* at times. But it's them, it's what they have. It's what has kept them tied and bound to one another all these years.
Dira posits the question: What exactly were Joe's motivations in killing himself?
She threw out several ideas, and other people did as well in the comments. And while I think there are arguments there to be made for all of them, for me, it comes down to this. Joe did it because...that's *Joe*. Joe is rash and when he gets an idea into his head, he just runs with it, no thought to consequence or after effects. Primary case being, Bucky Haight. I can see Joe sitting around, and all of the sudden he's like, Fuck this shit, Billy needs to get his ass back here. So he starts this chain reaction of events that snowball into a benefit tour for a man who isn't even injured. Joe committed himself to his idea, from the beginning, no matter how elaborate it got. His one goal was to *get Billy back*. He was going to do that no matter what. Joe's all about *now* and *sooner* and he's so hyped up most of the time that rational thought doesn't catch up to his looped ideas until it's much too late.
His suicide is another example of this rash behavior. He's fucking pissed that Billy is leaving him, he's fucking pissed at Bruce, he's fucking pissed at the project, he's totally isolated his *idol*, forsaking that relationship with Bucky all because he just *had* to get Billy back. His life is in the shitter, and fuck all, have a drink, curse everyone, spit on the ground and shoot yourself in the head. That's Joe. This brief thought of SHOOT MYSELF and *bam* he's there, he's committed, he's going to do it, because he can't look past the moment he's in. Presumably, he had the gun since at least they had stopped off at Bucky's. Ironic, yes, that he carries it around with him, shoots himself. A gun. The very thing they're raising money against. Joe *doesn't give a shit*. Because it's not about anything, anything at *all*, except for Billy. Who, in the end, Joe thinks he's lost.
But here's the thing. He hadn't. Billy going to LA, or going on to play with Jenifur is *not* a rebuff of Joe. It's Billy trying to make a go at something that will move him to the next phase of his life. Billy doesn't *want* to leave Joe...but again, he doesn't see LA/Jenifur as "leaving" Joe perse. He loves Joe. He came back for the tour. Repeatedly throughout the movie, he makes compromises with Joe, makes Joe promise him not to do certain things (ie, coke). Billy cares about Joe *long-term*. He wants to see Joe on his feet, stable, doing okay, because hell, if Joe falls apart, then Billy might just as well. The scene where the red-haired reporter interviews them after the concert: Billy just lets Joe be a complete asshole; not particularly finding it amusing, but it doesn't phase him anymore, because that's *Joe*. And Billy loves him no matter. No matter what. Billy sees past physical proximity when it comes to loving Joe, when it comes to having this incredibly complicated relationship with him. Billy accepts the love he has for Joe. He *believes* in it. It's not something he has to think about, or question.
Will Joe's actions affect Billy for the rest of Billy's life? God yes. These are things that *Billy* has thought about: how Joe killing himself means that Billy forever has him hanging around his neck. He forever has this specter following him around, watching over his shoulder. Joe's got a stranglehold over him in death that is just as strong as the grasp he had in life.
Joe's identity is wrapped up completely in Billy. Take for instance, the scene where Bruce asks him what he'll be doing in ten years. Joe's answer is that "if Billy's into it" then Joe will be doing the band/music/writing thing. And if "Pipe and John are around" then maybe they'll be in on it to. *If Pipe and John are around*. Joe *assumes* Billy will be there. Joe *expects* Billy to be there. Joe is just enough of an asshole to think that hey, if he wants Billy to be there, then Billy *will be*. Cause it's always been like that. Billy and Joe. Wrapped up in one another so much they can't survive without the other.
Dira also asks quote: (anybody else think that, Jenifur contract or no, Billy would never have escaped Joe's gravity well if Joe were still alive?) /endquote.
To this, I say HELL NO. Dira, I'm so with you on this one. Billy *can't* escape Joe's gravity well, any more than Joe can escape Billy's. They never will. The difference is that Joe is *desperate*. One thing that struck me in the movie is that of all of them, Billy is the only one who is attempting to grow up. He's not there yet, but by god, he's trying the only way he knows how. But here's the thing. Billy can no more live without Joe than Joe can live without Billy. Billy will never be able to move on from Joe, because as much as he wants Jenifur and everything that brings with it, he'll always want Joe. ETA: to clarify, Billy won't "move on" from Joe because Joe will always be a part of who he is. Not to say that Billy isn't ambitious, or can't live without Joe on a *daily basis*. Of the two, he's less desperate -- he's the stronger one. He knows that just because he and Joe aren't in the same city/band doesn't mean that they can't function day-to-day. Moving on is not about cutting someone else out of your life. It's about accepting how you feel about someone, how you interact with someone, and working that into whatever life you make for yourself. He'll always be wrapped up in Joe because they define each other. He's not Billy without Joe, he as much as admits this. He might *act* like he can survive without him, but just take the scene at the bar where Joe asks Billy to come on the tour, or the one in the car where they are playing word games. *That* defines who they are. That is *them*. It's the essence of their relationship; this way they have of communicating that screams familiarity and co-dependence.
The part of HCL that just gets me is how, ultimately, it's all about Billy. It's all about Joe getting Billy back. Every single second of Joe's day, every breath he takes is all about Billy. He didn't give a shit about the tour, about the movie, about the benefit, about Pipe or John, or hell, even Bucky. They were all conduits to the one thing, in the end, he thought was leaving him. What he didn't realize is that it was more than physical proximity to Billy that made them who they were. He was just too afraid and too insecure to find out.
Of the sublime:
1. Watching Hard Core Logo with rageprufrock and serialkarma is the best thing ever. So are orange rolls.
2. Unexpectedly getting flowers from a student. Pretty yellow and purple flowers, brightening up my apartment.
3. Having the day off work tomorrow. Ahhh, life. Ahhh, bed. Ahhh, wireless internet.
Of the un-sublime:
1. Melting as I walk the eight blocks home from work. Christ is it hot out there.
2. You know, I can't think of anything else that is un-sublime. Huh. That's cool.
So I got home and read over my friends list and came across this great discussion from dsudis about Hard Core Logo. (There are spoilers in that link).
I went to comment to her, and then I realized that it was going to be waaaay too long, so I thought I'd put out my thoughts here. Spoilers ahoy.
Yeah, okay, so in the end it's love, but what *kind* of love? Billy and Joe have the most fucked-up, co-dependent, emotionally unstable relationship I've ever seen. But you know what? They *really fucking love each other*. Fiercely, crazily, and forever. It's not a fairytale, it's not a romance any of us would probably want. It's not even *sane* at times. But it's them, it's what they have. It's what has kept them tied and bound to one another all these years.
Dira posits the question: What exactly were Joe's motivations in killing himself?
She threw out several ideas, and other people did as well in the comments. And while I think there are arguments there to be made for all of them, for me, it comes down to this. Joe did it because...that's *Joe*. Joe is rash and when he gets an idea into his head, he just runs with it, no thought to consequence or after effects. Primary case being, Bucky Haight. I can see Joe sitting around, and all of the sudden he's like, Fuck this shit, Billy needs to get his ass back here. So he starts this chain reaction of events that snowball into a benefit tour for a man who isn't even injured. Joe committed himself to his idea, from the beginning, no matter how elaborate it got. His one goal was to *get Billy back*. He was going to do that no matter what. Joe's all about *now* and *sooner* and he's so hyped up most of the time that rational thought doesn't catch up to his looped ideas until it's much too late.
His suicide is another example of this rash behavior. He's fucking pissed that Billy is leaving him, he's fucking pissed at Bruce, he's fucking pissed at the project, he's totally isolated his *idol*, forsaking that relationship with Bucky all because he just *had* to get Billy back. His life is in the shitter, and fuck all, have a drink, curse everyone, spit on the ground and shoot yourself in the head. That's Joe. This brief thought of SHOOT MYSELF and *bam* he's there, he's committed, he's going to do it, because he can't look past the moment he's in. Presumably, he had the gun since at least they had stopped off at Bucky's. Ironic, yes, that he carries it around with him, shoots himself. A gun. The very thing they're raising money against. Joe *doesn't give a shit*. Because it's not about anything, anything at *all*, except for Billy. Who, in the end, Joe thinks he's lost.
But here's the thing. He hadn't. Billy going to LA, or going on to play with Jenifur is *not* a rebuff of Joe. It's Billy trying to make a go at something that will move him to the next phase of his life. Billy doesn't *want* to leave Joe...but again, he doesn't see LA/Jenifur as "leaving" Joe perse. He loves Joe. He came back for the tour. Repeatedly throughout the movie, he makes compromises with Joe, makes Joe promise him not to do certain things (ie, coke). Billy cares about Joe *long-term*. He wants to see Joe on his feet, stable, doing okay, because hell, if Joe falls apart, then Billy might just as well. The scene where the red-haired reporter interviews them after the concert: Billy just lets Joe be a complete asshole; not particularly finding it amusing, but it doesn't phase him anymore, because that's *Joe*. And Billy loves him no matter. No matter what. Billy sees past physical proximity when it comes to loving Joe, when it comes to having this incredibly complicated relationship with him. Billy accepts the love he has for Joe. He *believes* in it. It's not something he has to think about, or question.
Will Joe's actions affect Billy for the rest of Billy's life? God yes. These are things that *Billy* has thought about: how Joe killing himself means that Billy forever has him hanging around his neck. He forever has this specter following him around, watching over his shoulder. Joe's got a stranglehold over him in death that is just as strong as the grasp he had in life.
Joe's identity is wrapped up completely in Billy. Take for instance, the scene where Bruce asks him what he'll be doing in ten years. Joe's answer is that "if Billy's into it" then Joe will be doing the band/music/writing thing. And if "Pipe and John are around" then maybe they'll be in on it to. *If Pipe and John are around*. Joe *assumes* Billy will be there. Joe *expects* Billy to be there. Joe is just enough of an asshole to think that hey, if he wants Billy to be there, then Billy *will be*. Cause it's always been like that. Billy and Joe. Wrapped up in one another so much they can't survive without the other.
Dira also asks quote: (anybody else think that, Jenifur contract or no, Billy would never have escaped Joe's gravity well if Joe were still alive?) /endquote.
To this, I say HELL NO. Dira, I'm so with you on this one. Billy *can't* escape Joe's gravity well, any more than Joe can escape Billy's. They never will. The difference is that Joe is *desperate*. One thing that struck me in the movie is that of all of them, Billy is the only one who is attempting to grow up. He's not there yet, but by god, he's trying the only way he knows how. But here's the thing. Billy can no more live without Joe than Joe can live without Billy. Billy will never be able to move on from Joe, because as much as he wants Jenifur and everything that brings with it, he'll always want Joe. ETA: to clarify, Billy won't "move on" from Joe because Joe will always be a part of who he is. Not to say that Billy isn't ambitious, or can't live without Joe on a *daily basis*. Of the two, he's less desperate -- he's the stronger one. He knows that just because he and Joe aren't in the same city/band doesn't mean that they can't function day-to-day. Moving on is not about cutting someone else out of your life. It's about accepting how you feel about someone, how you interact with someone, and working that into whatever life you make for yourself. He'll always be wrapped up in Joe because they define each other. He's not Billy without Joe, he as much as admits this. He might *act* like he can survive without him, but just take the scene at the bar where Joe asks Billy to come on the tour, or the one in the car where they are playing word games. *That* defines who they are. That is *them*. It's the essence of their relationship; this way they have of communicating that screams familiarity and co-dependence.
The part of HCL that just gets me is how, ultimately, it's all about Billy. It's all about Joe getting Billy back. Every single second of Joe's day, every breath he takes is all about Billy. He didn't give a shit about the tour, about the movie, about the benefit, about Pipe or John, or hell, even Bucky. They were all conduits to the one thing, in the end, he thought was leaving him. What he didn't realize is that it was more than physical proximity to Billy that made them who they were. He was just too afraid and too insecure to find out.