Is the government about to ban the Bat'leth?

[major_clanger]

BBC: 'Zombie knives' ban to come into force

I'm clearly not down with the street, because I didn't realise that 'Zombie knives' were a thing, or that there was enough of a problem with them that the government was instituting a ban on their sale or import. A friend of mine wonders if this ban would include the Bat'leth, the iconic Klingon multi-

Comments

[drplokta]

Surely the concern about "words that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence" is about their likely effect on the owner, not the victim, and so it is the owner who has to understand them. Which they probably will, if they've bought a bat'leth inscribed in Klingon, even if they don't know any other Klingon.

[major_clanger]

Good point! However, Hansard does not provide much help; neither the Commons nor the Lords committees that approved the SI specifically commented on whether (s)(iii) was aimed at the owner of such a knife or the people it might be threatened by.

(Yes, those were the top two Google hits on a search for 'hansard zombie knives'...)

[abigail_n]

Surely the important question here is whether these replica weapons have an edge? Most of the ones I've seen for sale have dull edges - it would be impossible to cut or stab someone with them.

(That said, a quick google for replica Bat'leths found one site that offers to put a "razor-sharp" edge on your weapon for an extra $5.)

In that case, I think it's very simple. If a replica weapon has an edge, then it's a weapon and is subject to all laws regarding weapons (and frankly, I don't think it should be legal to sell Bat'leths with an edge, whether or not they meet the definition of "zombie knives"). If it doesn't, then it's an ornament and laws about weapons don't apply.

[unwholesome_fen]

I think it's legal to own (but not carry) some edged weapons, so the question is rather which ones it's legal to own at all? Also, non-edged weapons are not necessarily just ornaments - for example a sword used for medieval re-enactment will have no edge, and I assume would be legal to carry if you're on your way to one.

[abigail_n]

That's my point. A sword with no edge is not a weapon. It's an ornament or a prop. Weapon laws wouldn't apply to it. A sword with an edge is a weapon, even if its intended use is for reenactment or role-playing. Weapon laws would, and should, be applied to it.

[major_clanger]

Still, waving such a weapon at someone might well be a public order offence, or even assault (you do not need to actually hit someone to assault them, just put them in immediate fear of violence.) For that matter, even a blunt sword, if heavy enough, could do you some damage.

(When I was an RAF officer cadet at Cranwell we used to practice sword drill with blunt and very plain training swords, the same weight and balance as the real thing. You would not have wanted someone to take a swipe at you with one.)

[steer]

That is quite the list isn't it? I wonder if it's a proactive or reactive list. Did they sit down and work out what problem weapons were or did they go "ooh... and maybe they could have a butterfly knife" --- and was there a concern about swordstick attacks or a spate of blowpipe murders?

Is it me or is the provision of s(iii) relatively odd. I mean it's quite peculiar that two weapons functionally the same are rendered legal or not so by some words saying "Stab me".

That said I'm often to be found wandering about town with a dive knife (if I'm going to/from a dive site or selling or buying such). That would otherwise be illegal under that ruling. Some divers use knives that definitely fall under "push dagger".

http://www.scubaboard.com/community/attachments/cs12bs-jpg.100405/

[major_clanger]

The original SI only went up to (n), and subsequent amending SIs have added to the list. I would not be at all surprised to find that each one was in relation to a specific scare, as this one is.

Yes, you could defeat (iii) by selling stickers separately. Although it is an offence to sell parts of a gun under UK gun laws, I don't see any similar provision for other offensive weapons, although I strongly suspect that importing or selling a kit for an offensive weapon might be classed as importing or selling the item itself (oddly, I have just won a tax tribunal case on a very similar point, in respect of VAT on kits for trailer homes.)

So long as you are carrying the knife for the reasons you say, then you would fall under the 'reasonable excuse' defence of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953.

[steer]

I guessed that there would likely be some "Yes, but that person is SUPPOSED to have it" defence --- after all you can buy these things in reputable shops.

Does the prohibition on curved swords imply by omission that I'm fine to have a straight sword over 50cm? (Katanas I guess is the worry here.)

Thanks -- interesting post.

[major_clanger]

Actually, when you read s.141 carefully it does not ban possession per se - only dealing in such weapons, possessing them for the purposes of dealing with them, or giving or lending them. So it's not unlawful to own any of these weapons, unless it looks like you are holding them as stock. (Mind you, the Police may have some questions as to how you obtained them.)

It's thus lawful to own a straight sword, as far as I can tell (NB THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE!!!) and even to sell or import them. As usual though, the laws about carrying such weapons in pubic would apply.

A colleague once had seven sabres in the boot of his car. He was bringing them to my first wedding, which was in RAF uniform, with swords for me and the honour guard. They were RAF property, made by Wilkinson Sword, gold-plated and worth about £2k each even back in 1998. You had to apply to borrow them from a central stock and promise to pay if lost or damaged!

[ms_cataclysm]

I have always wondered what an inoffensive weapon would be like.

[biascut]

A knife with (i) a cutting edge; (ii) a serrated edge; and (iii) the words "ooh, don't mind me" on it?

[major_clanger]

I'm now imagining a Culture knife missile that's coloured itself pink and written "Harmlessly Minding My Own Business" down its side.

(One of the things I liked about Guardians of the Galaxy was that Yondu's weapon was, pretty much, a knife missile straight out of Iain M Banks.)