(Untitled)

[me_ves_y_sufres]

This is intended as a question asked totally out of interest, and with no judgement implied, whatever your answers.

It goes out to all the people on my flist who identify as being interested, invested, involved or activists in one or more of the following areas:

• Tackling homophobia and heterocentrism. LGBT or queer rights, identity, representation

Comments

Ramble...

[steerpikelet]

This is complicated. The short answer is yes. For different reasons in all cases

Re: Ramble...

[me_ves_y_sufres]

Interesting-- do you view the history of the British Empire and imperialism as in any way constituting "basing our economy on the unpaid, low-paid or forced labour of people from ethnic minorities"? Or do you think that is a different issue and not comparable to American history?

Re: Ramble...

[steerpikelet]

Hm. It's a good point and an interesting question. I do think imperialism is a different related issue, partly because it was not directly or only about race, partly because that kind of economic exploitation - the exploitation of low-paid workers overseas - is still very much current, despite the nominal disintegration of the British Empire

Re: Ramble...

[steerpikelet]

Some part of my ancestry compels me to say 'also, the Irish!' at this point. For so many centuries, the Irish were our perennial immigrant worker class. Much of the current feelings of the non-immigrant working class towards Muslim immigrants are precisely analagous to the way people treated Irish immigrants a generation ago. Down to the 'you're all terrorists' suspicion.

[highfantastical]

One very clear example of intersectionality between disability and class is the question of being able (or, in most people's cases, unable) to afford private health care/therapy if needed. Also things like the extent to which it may be easier to communicate with medical professionals (& thus get the care you need, in theory at least!) if you share their class background.

[steerpikelet]

'With race, identity is often tied into class. I've seen several pieces of drama or comedy where a middle class black character is derided as not being really black because he (it usually is he) isn't involved in a tough street life and doesn't speak a Black dialect. I have seen situations where the derision comes from both black and white characters. Clearly class works to reinforce racial stereotyping and oppression.'

That's a very good point that I missed in my above assessment. Although a lot of this attitude comes from American drama/comedy, I actually think the penetration of this mindset has really affected the way that we think about class and race in this country, whatever our skin colour. So yeah, I think it was too simplistic to say 'in Britain it's different'. British class politics are increasingly influenced by US class politics.

[me_ves_y_sufres]

Thanks for all your answers, Laurie.

I'm also really interested that you seem to be focusing exclusively on Britain, or that your answers have largely reflected the UK in comparison to the US. Is this because it's the only place you're an activist in, or for another reason? Do you think the differences you've outlined between, say, the US/UK mean it is appropriate for different models or types of socialism to be put forward in each country? Or that it's easier to build socialism in one country than another (or, conversely, that you can't get socialism until you build it in both)?

Thanks again for your answers. (As I've said elsewhere in the thread: the aim was that I was particularly hoping to hear from people who do separate the two and maybe even think of them as antithetical to each other, ie, people who view themselves as, say, anti-racist or feminist activists but as economically 'right wing' or even libertarian. However, other people's answers have also been very interesting!)

[bluedevi]

My gut feeling is 'hell yes!' to both the questions, though my brain is still asleep and I haven't a hope of articulating why just yet. It's all one big... interconnected... blehgivememorecoffee...

On the sociology course I teach, they set up an opposition between 'old social movements' (ie class politics) and 'new social movements' (ie identity politics) as if they were a binary, in opposition to each other. I've always thought that was weird.

[me_ves_y_sufres]

Thank you for answering! I was particularly hoping to hear from people who do separate the two and maybe even think of them as antithetical to each other, ie, people who view themselves as, say, anti-racist or feminist activists but as economically 'right wing' or even libertarian.

On the sociology course I teach, they set up an opposition between 'old social movements' (ie class politics) and 'new social movements' (ie identity politics) as if they were a binary, in opposition to each other. I've always thought that was weird.

I was really, really hoping someone would mention that, because that's exactly what I wanted to explore-- whether people felt they were a binary or not, and particularly if people were strongly active on one side of the binary to the exclusion of the other.

Personally my feelings are that there's no distinction between economic issues and social ones but there you go.

[bluedevi]

There's a Simon Hallsworth study used in all the textbooks (from 1994) in which he reckons new social movements (concerned with all the things in your first list, plus environmentalism) are not interested in economic or class issues but in 'post-materialist' values. And that they're almost entirely middle-class. Ha, it's easy to be post-materialist when you're middle-class.

But that certainly hasn't been true of any of the activist types, or even politically concerned types, I know.

[bluedevi]

Out of interest, what's the class breakdown like in anti-fascist groups you've been involved with?

[sebastienne]

I absolutely agree with the above commenters who note the inter-related nature of all these issues.

With my feminism, I can see that legislation is not enough. I can see that the only way to smash the patriarchy is to change individual hearts and minds. Eventually, with all of the issues I work with, it comes back to "the reason it's this f*cked up is capitalism".

But I can see a course of action that leads to world governments signing up to climate change treaties. I can see a course of action that leads to equality under law for gay people. So I work on the little things, even though I know the big monster will remain unslain, because I can see a difference being made when we make capitalism just a bit less unspeakably awful.

Because smashing capitalism isn't even just an overwhelming "hearts-and-minds" issue, like the patriarchy; it's so entirely embedded in our way of life, in the very infrastructure, that (evil as I know it to be) I really can't see how to go about deconstructing it.

[like_achilles]

I do, and always have done.