I always think of Y'shua as simply, God coming down to earth in the form of a rabbi...
As for the necessity of deity on the part of Y'shua who was to be the kinsmen redeemer. The entire reason for Y'shua was to fulfill the redemption which required two things. a) kinship to Adam b) the wealth to redeem creation. Only God had the wealth to redeem creation. Therefore, the answer to the necessity of Y'shua to be both God and Man.
The Hebrew conotation of what it means to be an envoy, ambassador, representative, or whatever one may call it, provides for Jesus to be able to do what only Hashem could do. I'm not discounting him being the incarnation of God's wisdom, only what "incarnation" means. From a Hebrew perspective, his diefication is not necessary.
That is actually my point. But then, praise and worship of a person is quite different from the same for a diety. Worship of a diety other than Hashem is idolatry.
I do believe that he is the incarnation of Hashem's wisdom. But, unlike the author of the article I just linked to, that still doesn't bring me to the conclusion that he is Diety. The embodyment of Hashem, but not Diety. A co-judge as described by Daniel, but not Hashem. Though some would say there is no difference.
When you have time to listen to some audio, I highly reccommend the four lectures on Jesus found at www.ntwrightpage.com... Not that I'm trying to change your mind with them, but that I think you will enjoy them quite a bit. In fact, you may find that it deepens your love for our Messiah.
Thanks for discussing this with me. Though I'm not sure we might ever come to full agreement, I welcome dialogue and differing viewpoints as we all explore our faith.
I know...you prob are done with this...butsonxofxsaulJanuary 6 2005, 03:15:00 UTC
Ok. So I finally see the face on the shadow of "I'm not a Christian" that I have detected for a year. Now, that makes sense. What I don't understand is how you can be so firm that, at base, we believe the same.
I would have almost as much in common with the JW's if it wasn't for the fact that they, too, deny the deity of Christ. And, yes, if Jesus wasn't/isn't God, then we cannot be saved by His blood. Then the sacrifice on the cross of Christ was a goOd try, but not good enough. I mean, Brother, this is so basic and crucial to Biblical doctrine.
I don't know...I'm just so sad. But this makes so much sense. And my head is spinning because of your doctrinal/theological responses to the MC...they make you loOk like a perfectly fundamental (theologically) leader - boy, I just don't know what to say. argh.
Re: I know...you prob are done with this...butmikaeldravenJanuary 6 2005, 06:10:22 UTC
I had written a rather long reply about the development of Messiah to Diety, Christian Tradition development and the woes of replacement theology over the first few centuries alone, but then realized that I was defending myself when I didn't need to be. I was giving answers to questions that were never asked, and weren't seeking to understand anyway. So I'm re-writing this.
What were you getting at with this post? I'm lost as to it being anything but accusatory. At least that's how it feels. I thought we had decided long ago that we don't speak the same language, and I'm usually left feeling very highly misunderstood when we try. Perhaps we should call it quits? Any way about it, I pray that we both find Truth, whatever it ultimately turns out to be. And may neither of us be held to any theological trappings or traditions that hinder our growth.
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As for the necessity of deity on the part of Y'shua who was to be the kinsmen redeemer. The entire reason for Y'shua was to fulfill the redemption which required two things. a) kinship to Adam b) the wealth to redeem creation. Only God had the wealth to redeem creation. Therefore, the answer to the necessity of Y'shua to be both God and Man.
- The Saj
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I do believe that he is the incarnation of Hashem's wisdom. But, unlike the author of the article I just linked to, that still doesn't bring me to the conclusion that he is Diety. The embodyment of Hashem, but not Diety. A co-judge as described by Daniel, but not Hashem. Though some would say there is no difference.
When you have time to listen to some audio, I highly reccommend the four lectures on Jesus found at www.ntwrightpage.com... Not that I'm trying to change your mind with them, but that I think you will enjoy them quite a bit. In fact, you may find that it deepens your love for our Messiah.
Thanks for discussing this with me. Though I'm not sure we might ever come to full agreement, I welcome dialogue and differing viewpoints as we all explore our faith.
Reply
I would have almost as much in common with the JW's if it wasn't for the fact that they, too, deny the deity of Christ. And, yes, if Jesus wasn't/isn't God, then we cannot be saved by His blood. Then the sacrifice on the cross of Christ was a goOd try, but not good enough. I mean, Brother, this is so basic and crucial to Biblical doctrine.
I don't know...I'm just so sad. But this makes so much sense. And my head is spinning because of your doctrinal/theological responses to the MC...they make you loOk like a perfectly fundamental (theologically) leader - boy, I just don't know what to say. argh.
In love and with peace,
Tin
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What were you getting at with this post? I'm lost as to it being anything but accusatory. At least that's how it feels. I thought we had decided long ago that we don't speak the same language, and I'm usually left feeling very highly misunderstood when we try. Perhaps we should call it quits? Any way about it, I pray that we both find Truth, whatever it ultimately turns out to be. And may neither of us be held to any theological trappings or traditions that hinder our growth.
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