Angel. The Fall

[moscow_watcher]

The main complaints against Angel's arc I saw online boil down to two claims: a) Angel is out of character and b) to service Buffy's journey, Angel is destroyed.

Judging by Jeanty's Q&As, Angel's arc in season 8 is over. He won't be in #40. It's time to sum up his story. What the hell has happened to him?

Comments

[elisi]

I don't have anything to say (aycheb and I disagree so fundamentally on Angel that I wouldn't even know where to start). Instead I shall offer my opinion on Twangel with this gif. :)

[moscow_watcher]

Heee! This is purrr-fect! *ogles*
Is it some convention footage?

[elisi]

I have absolutely no idea. I just steal every .gif I come across... :)

[moscow_watcher]

If nothing else, having this gif on my LJ makes this post worth writing. :) ♥ *ogles more*

[stormwreath]

Great essay! I was pretty much nodding in agreement all the way through.

"So, if Whistler knew about the outcome, why didn't he just say, "Hey, Angel, you know there is a seed in Sunnydale, tell Buffy to grab her scythe and go and break it"If breaking the Seed cuts off Earth from all the other dimensions, presumably that means the Powers That Be wouldn't be able to reach or influence Earth either. So in their opinion, breaking it would be a defeat for them; the last thing they'd want their champions to do

[moscow_watcher]

Great essay!

Thank you!

If breaking the Seed cuts off Earth from all the other dimensions, presumably that means the Powers That Be wouldn't be able to reach or influence Earth either. So in their opinion, breaking it would be a defeat for them; the last thing they'd want their champions to do.

Then again, not breaking it is even the bigger defeat, because Earth dies and there will be nothing to reach and influence. (I tried to build a logical explanation of PtB's position to argue Leyki's point, but it became too complicated so I focused on Willow's possible reaction. She is very strong - she could turn Angel into a frog, despite all his God-like powers. So she could be a crucial factor here.

Has anyone asked Scott or Jane if that was 'really' Whistler, or instead Twilight in disguise?I read all their interviews I see online, but, AFAIK, nobody asked them. My hands are itching to go to Jane's blog and ask directly. The only thing that stops me is the thought that maybe it will be the crucial plot point of Angel's arc in season 9

[shipperx]

YES. THIS. Bolsheviks in Russia, Jakobins in France, they all sincerely believed they were building a better world

Except, unlike the motivations for those incidents, this was not and never was about suffering general populace. People were starving and oppressed there. This was about a handful of superbeings who were amassing military weaponry in the modern world.

If you go back to the French or Russian revolution, both of whom did indeed spin out of control, they started from a not-insane premise. The de-evolution evolved over time as they lost sight of their goals. Twilight's goal were completely hinky and poorly supported to begin with. Had they wanted us to find them at all rational, then it was on the comics to lay the groundwork to make them rational. They never did. The height of their 'explanation' was a talking dog discussing prophecies. This is not something that's particularly believable nor a good set-up for character motivation. It's a talking dog and a prophecy in a fictional universe where darn near every

[stormwreath]

Twilight's goal were completely hinky and poorly supported to begin with.

I assume you're talking about the goals that Angel and his human supporters thought they were fighting for here, rather than the deeper hidden plan of Twilight-the-Universe that Angel didn't know about?

"And now there's this prophecy, the biggest one the Powers have ever seen, so that's messing with the math, killing off timelines. Anyway, I've seen some of the futures. In some of them, right exactly at this point, you tell her what's going on. You work as a team, fight side by side. You lose the war side by side. Very romantic."

Angel thought he was saving the world (and building a better one). His followers thought they were defending humanity against evil magical and demonic powers. I don't see what's so hinky about that...

[shapinglight]

He believed he was special. A golden boy of PtB. Turned out he was a puppet in a dirty game. Can he go on fighting after that realisation?

For me, the question isn't so much what Angel will do next, it's do I care? I'm afraid the answer is a big, resounding no.

[moscow_watcher]

For me, the question isn't so much what Angel will do next, it's do I care? I'm afraid the answer is a big, resounding no.

Pity. You know how much I respect your views and how much I enjoy your reviews.

Love cannot be compelled - but I have a (weak) hope that issue #40 may change your opinion.

[shapinglight]

Well, if Angel's not even in it, I don't see how.

[moscow_watcher]

Maybe something Buffy and/or Spike say in the issue will prove to be very important (I'm reaching here, I know).

[shipperx]

So, pre-season 8, Angel comes back to our times from the post-apocalyptic future. He saw the things to come and he knows that the Earth is doomed all the people he cares about will die.

Would have been nice had the execution not sucked so badly that anyone could have figured this out without fanwanking a single line of isolated text in an after-thought one-shot issue that hadn't been planned for the series and only came about after the readers did a collective "wha-huh?"

Only de-powerment can lead to further empowerment And only two no's can make a yes

[moscow_watcher]

And only two no's can make a yes? I'm still boggling over depowering Buffy helps her...except, wait, weren't they powering up to be superbeings? So not really depowering. Just kinda-sorta-on-the-way-to-nonsensical-superpowers.

I think the premise works as a metaphor of the situation when a person has nothing to lose. He suddenly can do anything without bothering about consequences.

So why wasn't he surprised or more upset or more willing to help when it turned out to be? Instead he tried to convince Buffy that everything -- including the world ending -- was just fine.

I attribute it the the glow influence. *shrugs* Then again, Stormwreath up-thread thinks it's a normal human reaction. Maybe it's denial. Maybe. I don't know. It's the part that grates me the most.

And this? I categorize as Jeanty officially reaching. There's absolutely nothing to support that. It's trying to prove a negative "Well maybe it would've been worse"... Well, maybe it wouldn't have been! All we know for certain is that what he did do was catastrophic.I

[elisi]

I think the premise works as a metaphor of the situation when a person has nothing to lose. He suddenly can do anything without bothering about consequences.
Last comment, honest, but this just fitted in too perfectly with this particular piece of dialogue (since I'm all about Jack today...)

IANTO: I've nothing left to lose.

JACK: There's always something left to lose.

Listen to Jack, he speaks the truth.

[moscow_watcher]

Last comment, honest, but this just fitted in too perfectly with this particular piece of dialogue (since I'm all about Jack today...)

You're very welcome here, honey! Especially with more Jack gifs. :)))

(Seriously I stare at them and I'm like "season 8? what season 8?")

IANTO: I've nothing left to lose.
JACK: There's always something left to lose.

Listen to Jack, he speaks the truth.

The nameless slayer in "Chain" - did she have anything to lose?

Ozymandias was a stone cold brilliant *genius*, who planned and executed his own plan with great success and knew *exactly* what he was doing. That's why he's so scary.)

Ozymandias succeeded at horrible price. Angel thought he could succeed too.

[beer_good_foamy]

he definitely doesn't know that the fallout is the death of the old world.

Didn't Allie or Jeanty confirm that yes, Angel knew it would be? I think it may have been in one of the Slayalive Q&As.

[moscow_watcher]

Didn't Allie or Jeanty confirm that yes, Angel knew it would be? I think it may have been in one of the Slayalive Q&As.

I don't remember them talking about it. And, judging by Angel's reaction in #35 - "I -- I didn't think it would be..." - he is baffled.

[beer_good_foamy]

I can see how that interpretation would make him slightly less of a complete idiot, yes. I can't find the quote right now, but I remember reading it and going "Well, so much for the 'he's just in shock' theory." This isn't it, but it's close:

I think Angel was acting as selfish as anyone of us would in a situation where you could finally live out your life with your soul mate in total bliss. I mean, think of it, wouldn't you feel a little bias against disrupting something that you know could be so good with the girl (or boy) you've always wanted but could never really have? That's where I think Angel was coming from. It was damn near his duty to try his case with staying in Twilight. If I were Buffy I'd be offended if he didn't at least try.

But of course we've been told that everyone did what they had to and we're not to question their motives, so hey. I'll butt out. Sorry.

[stormwreath]

That doesn't contradict the idea that he's in shock, though - it just gives him an even more pressing personal reason to want to disbelieve the evidence of his own eyes.

Which he does for, ooh, at least three minutes before he admits he's wrong.