how oblivious and nonchalant he is about Buffy's feelings. He became his own
The two aren't dependent upon each other, are they? Because I don't think a person being sensitive to another's feelings means they've failed to be independent. (I don't really think you're saying that, but it's sometimes feels like people believe that...)
Rather, I think being sensitive to another's feelings, but not letting that be the only reason for your choices--that is what it means to be your own person. But what's more, a person who is compassionate and empathetic.
That being said, I think Buffy's hiding so much of what she's really feeling that it's too hard for Spike to get a read on her. Hence, why he think she's "weird". He's not oblivious really--I think of oblivious as not seeing something that's really in-your-face obvious. I think it's more that Buffy's hiding her feelings really well, so it's understandable that Spike isn't immediately clued in.
Lovely review! Love your thoughts about S8 and how it was supposed to be S7
Thank you, hon!
I really love how Spike is closer to the Spike I wrote in Strangers -except for wanting to save Angel, 'cause Canon Spike barely thinks about him
I think it's because this issue is focused on Buffy, so Spike don't have time for Angel. I'm almost sure that he'll be grudgingly helping Angel in season 9.
but how oblivious and nonchalant he is about Buffy's feelings. He became his own man which makes the Spuffy dynamic more interesting and refreshing.
Spike has always thought that Buffy didn't live him. Looks like she has to do something very bold to persuade him. But I'm not sure she can deal with it now.
I love almost everything you wrote here. Very insightful. The only thing I disagree with is that I don't see Buffy ever forgiving Angel for Giles murder. She could have forgiven almost *anything* else of him, but killing Giles is a forever kind of thing.
I don't think so - we entered "comic land" 39 issues before that happened - and in comic land, a little world endage and family massacre never stopped characters getting it on.
I don't see Buffy ever forgiving Angel for Giles murder. She could have forgiven almost *anything* else of him, but killing Giles is a forever kind of thing.
In epic stories larger-than-life characters make larger-than-life mistakes, and are usually forgiven for them. Giles has forgiven Angel for killing Jenny.
Besides, technically, it wasn't Angel. He was possessed by Twilight.
I don't expect a quick forgiveness, but i thint that eventually Joss will go there. Angel's story is about redemption. Maybe he will die for a while to make Buffy (and us) forgive him.
See, I never got that impression. Giles may have put up with Angel for Buffy's sake but I never thought he forgave him. Otherwise, he probably would have helped when Fred was dying.
negative review by fenderlove Aww, I thought my review was very positive. :(
they could easily strike back by recounting all Angel's crimes in season 8 Spuffies could do that with all of Angel's crimes ever, and they have. At length. Since S4. It didn't make a difference then, and it won't really make a difference now. Bangels still have the "glow" as the excuse for Angel's behavior (after all, if Buffy gets away with it as her little halo, then he can too), and Giles's death is attributed to Twilight since it possessed Angel at the time. There are a ton of excuses for him, and now he's got the pity factor because he's now insane out of guilt and is catatonic and needs 24/7 care to survive.
To make Spuffy ship dramatically viable, Joss has work to hard to find a radical new way to make our favorite blondes utterly miserable and heartbroken because of their feelings. How about Joss just starts writing decent stories? The human condition may include suffering, but generally people can go through their lives without pain and angst so
( ... )
Hee! Well, some people are very touchy, so I make kind of a warning that may not like what they find clicking on a link.
Bangels still have the "glow" as the excuse for Angel's behavior (after all, if Buffy gets away with it as her little halo, then he can too), and Giles's death is attributed to Twilight since it possessed Angel at the time. There are a ton of excuses for him, and now he's got the pity factor because he's now insane out of guilt and is catatonic and needs 24/7 care to survive.
There is a lot of "pre-glow" stuff. And "pity factor" don't work in shipper debates.
The human condition may include suffering, but generally people can go through their lives without pain and angst so dark that the "hero" wants to cut himself/herself just to see colour To me, Joss writes pure, unadulterated tragedy. All the time. Buffy may be cute, bouncy and perky, but she's the ultimate tragic hero. Spike may have awful TV tastes, but he's the ultimate tragic hero. Angel may have started in
( ... )
And "pity factor" don't work in shipper debates. Sure, it does. A lot of shippers of various flags and creeds use it. "Dark places" and "split personalities" are all excuses to evoke pity for the characters so that they can stay together.
But would you read a story in which he actually has everything he deserves?YES! Dear God, yes! I want him to be happy. I want him to have fulfillment. Hell, I want that for all the characters. I don't want them to suffer needlessly and endlessly, which is completely pointless. Joss claims he hates "torture porn" type movies, but that's all he writes. Suffering for suffering's sake is just senseless; it makes actual tragedy lose its meaning. Eventually you wind up with a bunch of people who are all dead inside, who want nothing because they just don't care, no emotions, no feelings. They'd all be sitting in a dark room, pinching themselves just to feel something, having sex for the sensation feeling disconnected from everything. Just because people have a modicum of happiness in their lives does not
( ... )
Sure, it does. A lot of shippers of various flags and creeds use it. "Dark places" and "split personalities" are all excuses to evoke pity for the characters so that they can stay together.
I interacted with Spike haters for a while, and my experience taught me, that pity factor is the most ridiculed argument: "you feel sorry for your poor Spikey-wikey, who..." [a list of his evil deeds to follow]. Fans of a character can find solace in pitying him among themselves, but fandom at large doesn't accept such arguments.
I want him to be happy. I want him to have fulfillment. Hell, I want that for all the characters.
... while I want to want them to be happy. As soon as they are happy, the urge to ship them is gone. So I want drama, I want terrible trials, I want angst and heartbreak.
Yes, certainly we we have to agree to disagree. Hope I don't offend you with my sadistic urges. :)
I think S7's arc was always supposed to end with the empowerment spell. I remember a story about Joss telling Marti the ending at the beginning of the season and her being wowed at the feministicness of it. That ending is about power but sharing it rather than being corrupted by it. It shifts the meaning just like they did with "death is your gift" meaning killing things when Spike said it in FFL but self sacrifice by the time Buffy figured it out in The Gift. When he thought up Fray (some time earlier) he may well have had an end of magic ending in mind but as an optimistic childhood's end, no more monsters kind of thing.
I added you review to the list - thank you for providing the link!
I remember a story about Joss telling Marti the ending at the beginning of the season and her being wowed at the feministicness of it.
I didn't know about it! Live and learn...
When he thought up Fray (some time earlier) he may well have had an end of magic ending in mind but as an optimistic childhood's end, no more monsters kind of thing.
Now when you say it, I'm even more intrigued about season 9.
Honestly, I can't see anything adult in the Season 8 Bangel story (porn sure? But as far as anything approaching any emotional or intellectual maturity? Uh-uh.) Angel lied to manipulate Buffy (on the say so of a talking dog) so they can get superpowers to Skinemax boff-create their own ridiculous happyland toga-world that brings about an apocalypse and the deaths of literally hundreds of girls until Angel is so mindnumbingly possessed that he becomes a marionette. Giles winds up dead and Angel can't remember how. It just comes off as ridiculously plot driven (or in this case universe mandated) stuff that has to happen 'just 'cause.'
That's not a complex anything. That's an idiot plot (the term meaning that none of the stuff going on would actually be going on if characters weren't being complete idiots and witholding a crap ton of information from each other ...simply because the plot can't function without it
( ... )
Honestly, I can't see anything adult in the Season 8 Bangel story (porn sure? But as far as anything approaching any emotional or intellectual maturity? Uh-uh.) Angel lied to manipulate Buffy (on the say so of a talking dog) so they can get superpowers to Skinemax boff-create their own ridiculous happyland toga-world that brings about an apocalypse and the deaths of literally hundreds of girls until Angel is so mindnumbingly possessed that he becomes a marionette. Giles winds up dead and Angel can't remember how. It just comes off as ridiculously plot driven (or in this case universe mandated) stuff that has to happen 'just 'cause.'Angel manipulated Buffy because he believed that it's the only way to save the world. He, in turn, was manipulated by greater forces. He and Buffy created a monstrous child who tried to destroy our world. To me, it's a powerful and poignant metaphor of any revolution and its leaders - from Jacobean to Bolsheviks - who believed that they acted for the greater good. They were the tyrants and the victims of
( ... )
He and Buffy created a monstrous child who tried to destroy our world. To me, it's a powerful and poignant metaphor of any revolution and its leaders - from Jacobean to Bolsheviks - who believed that they acted for the greater good.
If that was the point... The Hunger Games trilogy did it a thousand times better (and it's quite flawed in its own right)
Comments 144
(The comment has been removed)
The two aren't dependent upon each other, are they? Because I don't think a person being sensitive to another's feelings means they've failed to be independent. (I don't really think you're saying that, but it's sometimes feels like people believe that...)
Rather, I think being sensitive to another's feelings, but not letting that be the only reason for your choices--that is what it means to be your own person. But what's more, a person who is compassionate and empathetic.
That being said, I think Buffy's hiding so much of what she's really feeling that it's too hard for Spike to get a read on her. Hence, why he think she's "weird". He's not oblivious really--I think of oblivious as not seeing something that's really in-your-face obvious. I think it's more that Buffy's hiding her feelings really well, so it's understandable that Spike isn't immediately clued in.
Reply
Thank you, hon!
I really love how Spike is closer to the Spike I wrote in Strangers -except for wanting to save Angel, 'cause Canon Spike barely thinks about him
I think it's because this issue is focused on Buffy, so Spike don't have time for Angel. I'm almost sure that he'll be grudgingly helping Angel in season 9.
but how oblivious and nonchalant he is about Buffy's feelings. He became his own man which makes the Spuffy dynamic more interesting and refreshing.
Spike has always thought that Buffy didn't live him. Looks like she has to do something very bold to persuade him. But I'm not sure she can deal with it now.
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In epic stories larger-than-life characters make larger-than-life mistakes, and are usually forgiven for them. Giles has forgiven Angel for killing Jenny.
Besides, technically, it wasn't Angel. He was possessed by Twilight.
I don't expect a quick forgiveness, but i thint that eventually Joss will go there. Angel's story is about redemption. Maybe he will die for a while to make Buffy (and us) forgive him.
Reply
See, I never got that impression. Giles may have put up with Angel for Buffy's sake but I never thought he forgave him. Otherwise, he probably would have helped when Fred was dying.
Reply
Aww, I thought my review was very positive. :(
they could easily strike back by recounting all Angel's crimes in season 8
Spuffies could do that with all of Angel's crimes ever, and they have. At length. Since S4. It didn't make a difference then, and it won't really make a difference now. Bangels still have the "glow" as the excuse for Angel's behavior (after all, if Buffy gets away with it as her little halo, then he can too), and Giles's death is attributed to Twilight since it possessed Angel at the time. There are a ton of excuses for him, and now he's got the pity factor because he's now insane out of guilt and is catatonic and needs 24/7 care to survive.
To make Spuffy ship dramatically viable, Joss has work to hard to find a radical new way to make our favorite blondes utterly miserable and heartbroken because of their feelings. How about Joss just starts writing decent stories? The human condition may include suffering, but generally people can go through their lives without pain and angst so ( ... )
Reply
Hee! Well, some people are very touchy, so I make kind of a warning that may not like what they find clicking on a link.
Bangels still have the "glow" as the excuse for Angel's behavior (after all, if Buffy gets away with it as her little halo, then he can too), and Giles's death is attributed to Twilight since it possessed Angel at the time. There are a ton of excuses for him, and now he's got the pity factor because he's now insane out of guilt and is catatonic and needs 24/7 care to survive.
There is a lot of "pre-glow" stuff. And "pity factor" don't work in shipper debates.
The human condition may include suffering, but generally people can go through their lives without pain and angst so dark that the "hero" wants to cut himself/herself just to see colour To me, Joss writes pure, unadulterated tragedy. All the time. Buffy may be cute, bouncy and perky, but she's the ultimate tragic hero. Spike may have awful TV tastes, but he's the ultimate tragic hero. Angel may have started in ( ... )
Reply
Sure, it does. A lot of shippers of various flags and creeds use it. "Dark places" and "split personalities" are all excuses to evoke pity for the characters so that they can stay together.
But would you read a story in which he actually has everything he deserves?YES! Dear God, yes! I want him to be happy. I want him to have fulfillment. Hell, I want that for all the characters. I don't want them to suffer needlessly and endlessly, which is completely pointless. Joss claims he hates "torture porn" type movies, but that's all he writes. Suffering for suffering's sake is just senseless; it makes actual tragedy lose its meaning. Eventually you wind up with a bunch of people who are all dead inside, who want nothing because they just don't care, no emotions, no feelings. They'd all be sitting in a dark room, pinching themselves just to feel something, having sex for the sensation feeling disconnected from everything. Just because people have a modicum of happiness in their lives does not ( ... )
Reply
I interacted with Spike haters for a while, and my experience taught me, that pity factor is the most ridiculed argument: "you feel sorry for your poor Spikey-wikey, who..." [a list of his evil deeds to follow]. Fans of a character can find solace in pitying him among themselves, but fandom at large doesn't accept such arguments.
I want him to be happy. I want him to have fulfillment. Hell, I want that for all the characters.
... while I want to want them to be happy. As soon as they are happy, the urge to ship them is gone. So I want drama, I want terrible trials, I want angst and heartbreak.
Yes, certainly we we have to agree to disagree. Hope I don't offend you with my sadistic urges. :)
Reply
http://aycheb.livejournal.com/115178.html
I think S7's arc was always supposed to end with the empowerment spell. I remember a story about Joss telling Marti the ending at the beginning of the season and her being wowed at the feministicness of it. That ending is about power but sharing it rather than being corrupted by it. It shifts the meaning just like they did with "death is your gift" meaning killing things when Spike said it in FFL but self sacrifice by the time Buffy figured it out in The Gift. When he thought up Fray (some time earlier) he may well have had an end of magic ending in mind but as an optimistic childhood's end, no more monsters kind of thing.
Reply
I remember a story about Joss telling Marti the ending at the beginning of the season and her being wowed at the feministicness of it.
I didn't know about it! Live and learn...
When he thought up Fray (some time earlier) he may well have had an end of magic ending in mind but as an optimistic childhood's end, no more monsters kind of thing.
Now when you say it, I'm even more intrigued about season 9.
Reply
That's not a complex anything. That's an idiot plot (the term meaning that none of the stuff going on would actually be going on if characters weren't being complete idiots and witholding a crap ton of information from each other ...simply because the plot can't function without it ( ... )
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If that was the point... The Hunger Games trilogy did it a thousand times better (and it's quite flawed in its own right)
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