(Untitled)

[myrmedon]

I found this article very interesting; it raises issues I'd never even thought of before. I'm not sure if I agree with what it's saying, though; give me feedback.

http://www.reason.com/0304/co.cy.aborting.shtml

Oh, it's about male reproductive choice and abortion.

Comments

[niltiacllewxam]

it's true, it isn't fair, the only decent reasoning for it that i can imagine is that whatever choice the mother makes, she is likely to suffer more than the father, either by having the abortion, or, in most though not all cases, raising the child with or without the father. It would be nice if there was a middle ground solution, but i don't know where it would come from. As it is, guys deffinetly have the unfair side, as they have no choice.

[myrmedon]

yeah, I'd have serious issues saying that the father can force the mother to carry the baby to term, or that he could sign away his responsibilites. The deal with the syringe and the condom, though, is one place where I feel like thigs could be a little more equitable. I feel like things would be a lot better if a fetus could be extracted from the mother without harming it. That way, it would be like adoption but there would be no need to go through pregnancy, and the father could take the baby if the mom didn't want it. Of course, that raises the question of maternally paid child support.

[niltiacllewxam]

well yeah, when a mother impregnates herself on purpose while lying to the father, he becomes a sperm donor to me, and therefore no responsibility.

[aclockworkapple]

I'll be sure to read it sometime, but my patience level is way too low to read it all now (this is why I subscribe to magazines). I was surprised no one brought this up at the thought talk we had; I wanted to, but wasn't called on.

[seiquosteve]

Wow, this is almost exactly what I brought up the one time I took part in an abortion discussion. (Usually, things are too involved and emotional for me, I'm not exactly fully on either side.)

I don't have the statistics with me, but there still is some danger to the mother during pregnancy.

On the other hand - and this may seem cold - full abortion rights should also mean that men may choose to not pay for their child, assuming they aren't going to help raise it. Perhaps help paying for the medical costs involved with the pregnancy.

Bah, today I was just talking about how I shouldn't bring up politics so often, and here I am, taking part in a discussion on abortion. :P

[myrmedon]

yeah, it does seem somewhat reasonable to say that the man can choose whether or not to accept parental responsibility, but I think the decision should be made before sex, so that the woman knows that she's with someone who wouldn't help her out when it got down to it. An abortion is a much more painful process than simply signing away parenthood. Or maybe he can sign away parental rights, but castration is mandatory.

[seiquosteve]

Abortion doesn't necessarily mean rape. It could just be that the couple didn't use birth control properly, or they did, and it failed. Or that birth control wasn't available

[myrmedon]

I'm not saying anything about rape; obviously the father has no say bc if the father is known he should be in jail. I'm saying that if the father wants to have the rights of a father, he should both have the responsibility of paying for or helping to raise the child as well as equal chance at custody. I know that courts are traditionally biased toward mothers, but that really ought to change. Perhaps the father should only have to pay the percentage of the costs associated with childraising that he has the child. If the father doesn't want to be a father, he should let his sex partner know that beforehand and make it legally binding so that there isn't sex under the false pretense of shared responsibility. You can't ignore the considerable endangerment of life and emotional pain associated with either pregnancy decision, though, so I think it isn't really right to let the father sign off his responsibilities painlessly after the fact.

My two cents

[cricketlover]

This reminds me of a fluffy Pride and Prejudice fanfic I read the other day, where the girl gets pregnant, never tells the father because even though she's in love with him, her sister swindled him for a lot of money. Three years later she finds out that they're both still in love with each other and then she tells him about the child. He goes ballistic and then realizes that she could have aborted the child and realizes how lucky he is to have a child. Of course there's a happy ending with a big wedding

Re: My two cents

[myrmedon]

I agree with you that in a marriage or long term relationship sort of situation, it seems like the couple ought to have decided what to do beforehand. There are, however, sexual encounters which are neither rapes or part of serious relationships or marriages, and I think it is worth thinking about how much choice and responsibility each partner gets. Certainly it seems unfair at least to give a male sexual partner veto power over his partner's abortion, especially if they aren't even in a committed relationship, but it also doesn't seem quite right to make his child support obligations dependent upon the woman's decision, especially if she used deception to get his sperm. I don't know, though, maybe the woman should have to sign something clearing the man of parental responsibility before they have sex, so that if a man really doesn't want a child, he can clear himself of legal responsibilities. Plus that would be so very romantic.

Re: My two cents

[cricketlover]

Rather than getting into this debate and letting the situation arise, why don't both partners use protection, that way neither is dependent on the other. Protection is a very common theme in fanfic. And the argument about getting semen from the condom is irrelevant because that's artificial insemenation and any judge who orders the guy to pay child support is living in the wrong century.

Re: My two cents

[myrmedon]

How can the man prove that the woman got semen from the condom though? the legal issue is probably coming up well after the pregnancy, so there won't be sponges and syringes lying around. I agree that both partners ought to take responsibility for protecting themselves, but that isn't always going to stop a pregnancy.

[dependent_todd]

it is a sad fact, but the truth is..there can't be a way to give a male the authority of a partner's abortion. it should be a decision made by the couple (in most cases)...but if the man says no to abortion and the female wants to terminate her pregnancy, legally, the man's will can't force the female to go through with the pregnancy.....its just kind of impossible to give the male any rights...unless of course, there is required notification...but that's a whole other situation and there are many holes to that idea....

[myrmedon]

I'm thinking maybe if there was a legal waiver of parenthood which the man and woman have to sign before they have sex, exempting the man of responsibilites of parenthood as well as any rights associated with fatherhood. But I agree that you can't give a man veto power over a woman's body.