The interview! Translated in full. Enjoy!
Homosexuality gets ignored in football
DIE ZEIT: Mr Hitzlsperger, you asked for an interview, why?
Thomas Hitzlsperger: I’m speaking out about my homosexuality. I’d like to further a public discussion - namely the discussion about homosexuality amongst professional athletes. The topic gets stuck in the clichés again and again - professional athletes are perfectly ‘disciplined’, ‘tough’ and ‘hypermasculine’, but homosexuals are ‘bitchy’, ‘soft’ and ‘sensitive’. How does that fit? And a homosexual professional athlete? This gets elevated to contradictions that annoyed me often in my professional career. These contradictions get hyped to the level of a sensation in pub talks. I also was annoyed that especially those with the barest factual knowledge were the ones talking the loudest about the topic.
ZEIT: Why do you want to speak out now, then? Did someone threaten to out you?
Hitzlsperger: That wouldn’t be a threat to me. Why ever? When I was a pro, I was a public person every sociopath could talk trash about without ever having second thoughts. In football, you can be labeled as anything and then you’re ‘manic-depressive’, ‘homosexual’, ‘addicted to gambling’ or ‘broke’. The most common is currently ‘homosexual’, especially with the derisive and denunciatory addition of ‘gay’ (‘schwul’ in German).
ZEIT: You think that the word ‘gay’ is denunciatory?
Hitzlsperger: Yes, it’s commonly used in this way.
ZEIT: But why do you speak up at this time, then?
Hitzlsperger: I had to end my footballing career - too many injuries. So I now have time for this engagement. I also have the feeling that now is a good time. The Olympic Games in Sochi are coming up, and in my opinion, there have to be critical voices against the campaigns of many governments against homosexuals.
ZEIT: Since when were you aware that you are homosexual?
Hitzlsperger: Many people believe that there’s a definite time when you know. That’s rather naïve of course. I myself grew up in deep Catholic Bavaria in a small village. Homosexuality was seen as something perverse, even criminal. That didn’t matter to me. Because I couldn’t imagine that it would become important to me later on. A lot later I read essays about the self-evidence of sexual diversity, for example by the sexual researcher Volkmar Sigusch. All that didn’t fit the Catholic dogma, but that was why it interested me. Only very slowly I realized that it did concern me.
ZEIT: Only as an adult? Didn’t you notice earlier that you felt differently than others, and talked to someone about it?
Hitzlsperger: What would that be like? And what do you mean with ‘feeling differently’? Than who?
ZEIT: Than most other young men of your age…
Hitzlsperger: Feelings are always only subjective.
ZEIT: Sure. But did you talk to someone about your subjective feelings?
Hitzlsperger: When would one talk about feelings concerning one’s sexual orientation? As a pro player, there are many more important questions that are more immediate. A football team isn’t a therapy group. You talk about victories, scored goals, maybe about annoyances with government agencies like the immigration office or the IRS. You have a girlfriend or you don’t. I was lucky to have a really good girlfriend early. We were happy together - it was an all-around good time! The job didn’t just ask for a lot of my time, but also of my thoughts. There was a lot to talk about - aggressiveness, media criticism, obedience, fairness, the teammates, the moves, the standard of life, religion. Our relationship helped me with many difficulties because my partner always supported me. The relationship lasted longer than most others in our circle of acquaintances. We were already planning the wedding. But after eight years this relationship was at its end, without my partner knowing of my feelings for men. That was six years ago.
She was the only woman for me. I didn’t want another after her. Additionally, I realized that I had arrived at my physical limits as a footballer. I also started to accept a change in my sexual orientation as a by-product of my growing older and my occupational re-orientation.
ZEIT: You see homosexuality as ‘by-product of growing older and an occupational re-orientation’?
Hitzlsperger: Yes. Only in the last years I realized that I’d rather live with a man.
ZEIT: Was fear of possible reactions by teammates, coaches and fans also a reason?
Hitzlsperger: Homosexuality gets practically ignored in football. In England, Germany or Italy it isn’t a serious topic, at least not in the locker room. That’s why it isn’t easy to find someone in the football milieu who wants to talk about his sexual orientation openly. Until today I don’t know any footballer personally who addressed it.
ZEIT: Do homosexual footballers risk their career when they come out?
Hitzlsperger: Sports-wise, that’s not important, luckily. But if you look at possible ad revenue, then that might complicate things. Society-wise, there’s also something like a sexual obligation. If you don’t conform to it, then you’ll be a joke.
ZEIT: So pro football is still a closed community regarding the topic of sexuality?
Hitzlsperger: When the team goes out in the evening, you drink, you have fun. Of course then the players talk about women. But no one will gush about attractive men in such a situation.
ZEIT: How uncomfortable was this culture for you?
Hitzlsperger: Just think: Twenty young men sit around the tables and are drinking. You then let the majority do what they want, as long as the jokes are somewhat funny and the trash talk about homosexuals doesn’t become massively insulting.
ZEIT: Because you’re afraid that the truth would come out?
Hitzlsperger: It isn’t that simple. Some know already about their own homosexuality. Others are afraid to dig deeper into their sexuality. The ones who are afraid of their own homosexuality are also afraid to be found out by the others. And so they try to distract from themselves, grow aggressive or pick fights. I called this washhouse atmosphere and could bear it only with difficulty.
ZEIT: Were you ever ashamed to be homosexual?
Hitzlsperger: Why should I have been ashamed? I never was ashamed that I’m the way I am. I did ask myself the usual questions many homosexuals also asked themselves: what will the friends say? How will the family react? But I never was ashamed.
ZEIT: And yet you lied for years?
Hitzlsperger: When you can sense the mood of a team, you just know what’s OK and what isn’t. The group pressure can be enormous. And it’s the same thing with relatives. But there’s a difference between keeping silent and lying.
ZEIT: An example, please.
Hitzlsperger: When it was about topics like cheating and other women, I replied, “My girlfriend is too important for me. I don’t do that.” That wasn’t a lie at all as I did really have a loving and good relationship with my life partner.
ZEIT: Were you the stodgy one then?
Hitzlsperger: Definitely not. I just stuck with those who were of a similar mind. After my girlfriend moved out, I simply lived alone. And that was new for me. But after a time I had to listen to ‘Don’t you have a new one yet?’ or ‘Don’t be too choosy!’
ZEIT: Mr Hitzlsperger, you said that you don’t know any football player personally who told you that he’s homosexual. But aren’t there rife speculations, for example in the locker room, amongst the players?
Hitzlsperger: Of course - football needs gossip and speculations, too. It could go like that, ‘I know someone who knows someone who says that so-and-so is gay.’ Naturally then names are named, too - if the respective player isn’t in the room. I never saw it happen when the player in question was there.
ZEIT: Do you think that you were a topic of discussion when you weren’t in the locker room?
Hitzlsperger: That’s something I’m asking myself only just today. Did they talk about me when I wasn’t in the locker room? But that’s over and done for me.
ZEIT: Is it really over and done for you?
Hitzlsperger: I did notice early that I had different interests than maybe most of my colleagues. The media did spell that out to me: [he] ‘likes to read’ or ‘is a thinker’. But there’s pretty much no outer attribute of mine that could be seen as ‘typically homosexual’. What’s that supposed to be, anyway, ‘typically homosexual’? Professional football is a really tough competitive sport. Fight, passion and the will to win are inseparably connected. That doesn’t fit in the picture many people have when they think about homosexuals, namely, ‘gays are weak.’
ZEIT: Did you ever fear to be seen as ‘effeminate’ in such a culture?
Hitzlsperger: Whoever thought my demeanor on the pitch to be ‘effeminate’ is probably too far gone for help. I was a big guy with an extremely hard kick. Not many have that. My nickname is ‘Hammer’. (laughs) It’s really utter rubbish that homosexuals are ‘effeminate’. You hear that stereotype again and again. Homosexuality and manliness aren’t a contradiction.
ZEIT: How did people talk about gays in your presence?
Hitzlsperger: As absurd as that might seem in the year 2014: ‘gay’ as a derogatory word is still widely used in football. You even say ‘gay pass’ after a weak assist.
ZEIT: Did you use a similar expression like ‘gay pass’ yourself?
Hitzlsperger: I’m sure I did say something like that at least once, I’m afraid.
ZEIT: But aren’t such expressions a sign for homophobia?
Hitzlsperger: Pathological homophobia is a serious thing, surely. There are also people who recognize homosexual urges in themselves and in panic of them, react overly aggressive and defensive. Little slips you can rebut in a relaxed manner. Pathological diagnoses I’ll leave to the psychiatry. I did learn something interesting, though: even if someone knows about my sexual orientation, he still can address a behavior or an observation thoughtlessly and calmly as ‘that’s so gay… well, you know what I mean.’ They correct their own internalized stereotype in the same sentence. That’s not a bad thing to me, it’s just funny.
ZEIT: When is it not funny for you anymore, but hurtful and threatening?
Hitzlsperger: In my active career as pro player at home and abroad I had some glaring experiences, too. Many people have really naïve beliefs about homosexuality and aren’t afraid to voice their rejection openly. There are stupid wisecracks, dumb jokes, but you can’t analyze everything to death. But when people are calling for ostracism and violence, then that’s too much.
ZEIT: You were there?
Hitzlsperger: Yes, in the locker room. I saw it happen even though I wasn’t addressed personally.
ZEIT: Could you describe that in more detail?
Hitzlsperger: I’d rather not.
ZEIT: What did change since the first time you thought about confessing your homosexuality so that you now believe that you can address it openly and end the hiding?
Hitzlsperger: It isn’t really a confession. I don’t go around and bother other people [with it]. I just want to lessen the exclusivity of the topic and thus also the sharp focus. The printed and public opinion has grown much more relaxed and tolerant. And I’m also more relaxed about it. It’s the same with my family and with my friends, too. I’m very thankful to them. But it was admittedly a long and difficult process.
ZEIT: Did you also think about what would be the worst reaction to this interview for you?
Hitzlsperger: I don’t speculate about that. The worst would surely be if no one would want to read it. (laughs)
ZEIT: What does the best possible scenario look like? Which reactions are you hoping for with this interview? Love letters without end?
Hitzlsperger: (laughs) Oh, well, if the right one would be amongst them…! No, seriously: I want to further a public discussion - the discussion regarding homosexuality amongst professional athletes by speaking about it once in public, so that the sexual orientation of an athlete becomes his private matter again because there simply isn’t anything unnatural about it.
ZEIT: You waited for the end of your active career before you spoke out. Didn’t you want to endanger your career?
Hitzlsperger: I did think about it…
ZEIT: But you didn’t have the courage for it?
Hitzlsperger: What does thinking about it have to do with courage? You have to talk to others first about the results of what you were thinking about. The most common reaction was: ‘Don’t talk about it! It’ll only complicate things.’
ZEIT: And now you decided to not listen to this advice?
Hitzlsperger: On the contrary! I listen patiently and attentively to each sincerely meant bit of advice. But that doesn’t mean at all that I’d follow it, too. And concerning me it’s now rather simple: my homosexuality is no secret anymore now.
ZEIT: The German Football Association (DFB) did say from time to time that in the case a footballer would out himself, they’d be very tolerant about the topic as an association. Did you speak with someone from the DFB before the publication of this interview?
Hitzlsperger: Yes, I talked to the national coach, Joachim Löw, and the national team manager, Oliver Bierhoff. After the five years I was with the national team, I thought it only right to inform them.
ZEIT: And how did they react?
Hitzlsperger: They accepted it - of course positively. And to be honest, I didn’t expect anything else. Modern football has no room for Victorian attitudes and outdated prejudices. That should encourage the youths who are now going to enter professional sports.
crossposted to Dreamwidth with
comments
DIE ZEIT: Mr Hitzlsperger, you asked for an interview, why?
Thomas Hitzlsperger: I’m speaking out about my homosexuality. I’d like to further a public discussion - namely the discussion about homosexuality amongst professional athletes. The topic gets stuck in the clichés again and again - professional athletes are perfectly ‘disciplined’, ‘tough’ and ‘hypermasculine’, but homosexuals are ‘bitchy’, ‘soft’ and ‘sensitive’. How does that fit? And a homosexual professional athlete? This gets elevated to contradictions that annoyed me often in my professional career. These contradictions get hyped to the level of a sensation in pub talks. I also was annoyed that especially those with the barest factual knowledge were the ones talking the loudest about the topic.
ZEIT: Why do you want to speak out now, then? Did someone threaten to out you?
Hitzlsperger: That wouldn’t be a threat to me. Why ever? When I was a pro, I was a public person every sociopath could talk trash about without ever having second thoughts. In football, you can be labeled as anything and then you’re ‘manic-depressive’, ‘homosexual’, ‘addicted to gambling’ or ‘broke’. The most common is currently ‘homosexual’, especially with the derisive and denunciatory addition of ‘gay’ (‘schwul’ in German).
ZEIT: You think that the word ‘gay’ is denunciatory?
Hitzlsperger: Yes, it’s commonly used in this way.
ZEIT: But why do you speak up at this time, then?
Hitzlsperger: I had to end my footballing career - too many injuries. So I now have time for this engagement. I also have the feeling that now is a good time. The Olympic Games in Sochi are coming up, and in my opinion, there have to be critical voices against the campaigns of many governments against homosexuals.
ZEIT: Since when were you aware that you are homosexual?
Hitzlsperger: Many people believe that there’s a definite time when you know. That’s rather naïve of course. I myself grew up in deep Catholic Bavaria in a small village. Homosexuality was seen as something perverse, even criminal. That didn’t matter to me. Because I couldn’t imagine that it would become important to me later on. A lot later I read essays about the self-evidence of sexual diversity, for example by the sexual researcher Volkmar Sigusch. All that didn’t fit the Catholic dogma, but that was why it interested me. Only very slowly I realized that it did concern me.
ZEIT: Only as an adult? Didn’t you notice earlier that you felt differently than others, and talked to someone about it?
Hitzlsperger: What would that be like? And what do you mean with ‘feeling differently’? Than who?
ZEIT: Than most other young men of your age…
Hitzlsperger: Feelings are always only subjective.
ZEIT: Sure. But did you talk to someone about your subjective feelings?
Hitzlsperger: When would one talk about feelings concerning one’s sexual orientation? As a pro player, there are many more important questions that are more immediate. A football team isn’t a therapy group. You talk about victories, scored goals, maybe about annoyances with government agencies like the immigration office or the IRS. You have a girlfriend or you don’t. I was lucky to have a really good girlfriend early. We were happy together - it was an all-around good time! The job didn’t just ask for a lot of my time, but also of my thoughts. There was a lot to talk about - aggressiveness, media criticism, obedience, fairness, the teammates, the moves, the standard of life, religion. Our relationship helped me with many difficulties because my partner always supported me. The relationship lasted longer than most others in our circle of acquaintances. We were already planning the wedding. But after eight years this relationship was at its end, without my partner knowing of my feelings for men. That was six years ago.
She was the only woman for me. I didn’t want another after her. Additionally, I realized that I had arrived at my physical limits as a footballer. I also started to accept a change in my sexual orientation as a by-product of my growing older and my occupational re-orientation.
ZEIT: You see homosexuality as ‘by-product of growing older and an occupational re-orientation’?
Hitzlsperger: Yes. Only in the last years I realized that I’d rather live with a man.
ZEIT: Was fear of possible reactions by teammates, coaches and fans also a reason?
Hitzlsperger: Homosexuality gets practically ignored in football. In England, Germany or Italy it isn’t a serious topic, at least not in the locker room. That’s why it isn’t easy to find someone in the football milieu who wants to talk about his sexual orientation openly. Until today I don’t know any footballer personally who addressed it.
ZEIT: Do homosexual footballers risk their career when they come out?
Hitzlsperger: Sports-wise, that’s not important, luckily. But if you look at possible ad revenue, then that might complicate things. Society-wise, there’s also something like a sexual obligation. If you don’t conform to it, then you’ll be a joke.
ZEIT: So pro football is still a closed community regarding the topic of sexuality?
Hitzlsperger: When the team goes out in the evening, you drink, you have fun. Of course then the players talk about women. But no one will gush about attractive men in such a situation.
ZEIT: How uncomfortable was this culture for you?
Hitzlsperger: Just think: Twenty young men sit around the tables and are drinking. You then let the majority do what they want, as long as the jokes are somewhat funny and the trash talk about homosexuals doesn’t become massively insulting.
ZEIT: Because you’re afraid that the truth would come out?
Hitzlsperger: It isn’t that simple. Some know already about their own homosexuality. Others are afraid to dig deeper into their sexuality. The ones who are afraid of their own homosexuality are also afraid to be found out by the others. And so they try to distract from themselves, grow aggressive or pick fights. I called this washhouse atmosphere and could bear it only with difficulty.
ZEIT: Were you ever ashamed to be homosexual?
Hitzlsperger: Why should I have been ashamed? I never was ashamed that I’m the way I am. I did ask myself the usual questions many homosexuals also asked themselves: what will the friends say? How will the family react? But I never was ashamed.
ZEIT: And yet you lied for years?
Hitzlsperger: When you can sense the mood of a team, you just know what’s OK and what isn’t. The group pressure can be enormous. And it’s the same thing with relatives. But there’s a difference between keeping silent and lying.
ZEIT: An example, please.
Hitzlsperger: When it was about topics like cheating and other women, I replied, “My girlfriend is too important for me. I don’t do that.” That wasn’t a lie at all as I did really have a loving and good relationship with my life partner.
ZEIT: Were you the stodgy one then?
Hitzlsperger: Definitely not. I just stuck with those who were of a similar mind. After my girlfriend moved out, I simply lived alone. And that was new for me. But after a time I had to listen to ‘Don’t you have a new one yet?’ or ‘Don’t be too choosy!’
ZEIT: Mr Hitzlsperger, you said that you don’t know any football player personally who told you that he’s homosexual. But aren’t there rife speculations, for example in the locker room, amongst the players?
Hitzlsperger: Of course - football needs gossip and speculations, too. It could go like that, ‘I know someone who knows someone who says that so-and-so is gay.’ Naturally then names are named, too - if the respective player isn’t in the room. I never saw it happen when the player in question was there.
ZEIT: Do you think that you were a topic of discussion when you weren’t in the locker room?
Hitzlsperger: That’s something I’m asking myself only just today. Did they talk about me when I wasn’t in the locker room? But that’s over and done for me.
ZEIT: Is it really over and done for you?
Hitzlsperger: I did notice early that I had different interests than maybe most of my colleagues. The media did spell that out to me: [he] ‘likes to read’ or ‘is a thinker’. But there’s pretty much no outer attribute of mine that could be seen as ‘typically homosexual’. What’s that supposed to be, anyway, ‘typically homosexual’? Professional football is a really tough competitive sport. Fight, passion and the will to win are inseparably connected. That doesn’t fit in the picture many people have when they think about homosexuals, namely, ‘gays are weak.’
ZEIT: Did you ever fear to be seen as ‘effeminate’ in such a culture?
Hitzlsperger: Whoever thought my demeanor on the pitch to be ‘effeminate’ is probably too far gone for help. I was a big guy with an extremely hard kick. Not many have that. My nickname is ‘Hammer’. (laughs) It’s really utter rubbish that homosexuals are ‘effeminate’. You hear that stereotype again and again. Homosexuality and manliness aren’t a contradiction.
ZEIT: How did people talk about gays in your presence?
Hitzlsperger: As absurd as that might seem in the year 2014: ‘gay’ as a derogatory word is still widely used in football. You even say ‘gay pass’ after a weak assist.
ZEIT: Did you use a similar expression like ‘gay pass’ yourself?
Hitzlsperger: I’m sure I did say something like that at least once, I’m afraid.
ZEIT: But aren’t such expressions a sign for homophobia?
Hitzlsperger: Pathological homophobia is a serious thing, surely. There are also people who recognize homosexual urges in themselves and in panic of them, react overly aggressive and defensive. Little slips you can rebut in a relaxed manner. Pathological diagnoses I’ll leave to the psychiatry. I did learn something interesting, though: even if someone knows about my sexual orientation, he still can address a behavior or an observation thoughtlessly and calmly as ‘that’s so gay… well, you know what I mean.’ They correct their own internalized stereotype in the same sentence. That’s not a bad thing to me, it’s just funny.
ZEIT: When is it not funny for you anymore, but hurtful and threatening?
Hitzlsperger: In my active career as pro player at home and abroad I had some glaring experiences, too. Many people have really naïve beliefs about homosexuality and aren’t afraid to voice their rejection openly. There are stupid wisecracks, dumb jokes, but you can’t analyze everything to death. But when people are calling for ostracism and violence, then that’s too much.
ZEIT: You were there?
Hitzlsperger: Yes, in the locker room. I saw it happen even though I wasn’t addressed personally.
ZEIT: Could you describe that in more detail?
Hitzlsperger: I’d rather not.
ZEIT: What did change since the first time you thought about confessing your homosexuality so that you now believe that you can address it openly and end the hiding?
Hitzlsperger: It isn’t really a confession. I don’t go around and bother other people [with it]. I just want to lessen the exclusivity of the topic and thus also the sharp focus. The printed and public opinion has grown much more relaxed and tolerant. And I’m also more relaxed about it. It’s the same with my family and with my friends, too. I’m very thankful to them. But it was admittedly a long and difficult process.
ZEIT: Did you also think about what would be the worst reaction to this interview for you?
Hitzlsperger: I don’t speculate about that. The worst would surely be if no one would want to read it. (laughs)
ZEIT: What does the best possible scenario look like? Which reactions are you hoping for with this interview? Love letters without end?
Hitzlsperger: (laughs) Oh, well, if the right one would be amongst them…! No, seriously: I want to further a public discussion - the discussion regarding homosexuality amongst professional athletes by speaking about it once in public, so that the sexual orientation of an athlete becomes his private matter again because there simply isn’t anything unnatural about it.
ZEIT: You waited for the end of your active career before you spoke out. Didn’t you want to endanger your career?
Hitzlsperger: I did think about it…
ZEIT: But you didn’t have the courage for it?
Hitzlsperger: What does thinking about it have to do with courage? You have to talk to others first about the results of what you were thinking about. The most common reaction was: ‘Don’t talk about it! It’ll only complicate things.’
ZEIT: And now you decided to not listen to this advice?
Hitzlsperger: On the contrary! I listen patiently and attentively to each sincerely meant bit of advice. But that doesn’t mean at all that I’d follow it, too. And concerning me it’s now rather simple: my homosexuality is no secret anymore now.
ZEIT: The German Football Association (DFB) did say from time to time that in the case a footballer would out himself, they’d be very tolerant about the topic as an association. Did you speak with someone from the DFB before the publication of this interview?
Hitzlsperger: Yes, I talked to the national coach, Joachim Löw, and the national team manager, Oliver Bierhoff. After the five years I was with the national team, I thought it only right to inform them.
ZEIT: And how did they react?
Hitzlsperger: They accepted it - of course positively. And to be honest, I didn’t expect anything else. Modern football has no room for Victorian attitudes and outdated prejudices. That should encourage the youths who are now going to enter professional sports.
crossposted to Dreamwidth with
comments