Re: oh man i never even thought of thaterinruaOctober 4 2008, 03:43:15 UTC
Actually ... No. It already happened. ;-) Dean just tinkered a bit with the guts of *how*. Castiel clearly said there is no changing destiny. Castiel sent Dean back *knowing* Dean could not change the ultimate outcome of anything. He just wanted Dean to witness and learn the facts.
So Dean's return did not *make* anything happen. All it maybe did was jig a few details along the way. Everything would have happened even without Dean's interference, maybe just in a slightly different way.
Destiny. What happens will happen. But. Dean probably won't see it that way, at all. He HAD his chance to change fate ... and all he'll see is that he blew it. He won't believe that Fate itself was against him, and that he couldn't have changed a thing.
Oh, Dean. And yeah. Castiel is not anybody's guardian angel. He just wants Dean to be "Daddy's blunt little instrument" all over again. *wibble*
Re: oh man i never even thought of thatnoirbabalonOctober 5 2008, 11:40:04 UTC
Time travel is funny and tricky and I don't pretend to understand it but from what I gather if Castiel hadn't sent Dean back history would be different
( ... )
Re: oh man i never even thought of thaterinruaOctober 6 2008, 03:16:46 UTC
My argument is that if Dean hadn't been sent back by Castiel Mary may not have been targeted by Azazel. This doesn't suggest that anything could be different now because Castiel sent Dean back, only that if a different path had initially been taken by Castiel the outcome would have been different. I think this is a paradox.
We are/have been watching the outcome of Castiel's actions that will happen in the future (in the beginning of the 403); so Castiel always has sent Dean back; he had no choice as he is an Angel of God but that doesn't change the fact that if he hadn't sent Dean back then Mary would never have met Azazel. IMHOIt's *very* paradoxical! LOL, it makes my head swim to contemplate it. The hard part for me it to try and discern where this connundrum began. If we accept that the cycle started in 1973, before Dean was born and without his interferrence ... then somehow the events we saw: the YED in the neighborhood, the Campbells getting involved because of Liddy whatserface, the YED killing Samuel and Deanna ... would
( ... )
Yes but Castiel as an Angel has no right to free will as granted by God to mortal man (according to Christianity). He must do as God wills, ie bring Dean out of perdition.
Which leads to your comment about the plan "being on the cards since Day One"...just thinking about it now does Castiel state that sending Dean back was God's will or only that now Dean know's all that the Angels know...and if you believe that this is all preordained by God then he would know the endgame of Azazel and Lilith and be prepared for it wouldn't he? He created the Fallen Ones as he created all other Angels and has, according to Chrisitan mythology preordained their actions.) To what purpose? Or is he just the great puppet master ( and this is my problem with the whole preordained thing...) ... sorry i think i just beat myself to death with my attempt at logic :-)
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So Dean's return did not *make* anything happen. All it maybe did was jig a few details along the way. Everything would have happened even without Dean's interference, maybe just in a slightly different way.
Destiny. What happens will happen. But. Dean probably won't see it that way, at all. He HAD his chance to change fate ... and all he'll see is that he blew it. He won't believe that Fate itself was against him, and that he couldn't have changed a thing.
Oh, Dean. And yeah. Castiel is not anybody's guardian angel. He just wants Dean to be "Daddy's blunt little instrument" all over again. *wibble*
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We are/have been watching the outcome of Castiel's actions that will happen in the future (in the beginning of the 403); so Castiel always has sent Dean back; he had no choice as he is an Angel of God but that doesn't change the fact that if he hadn't sent Dean back then Mary would never have met Azazel. IMHOIt's *very* paradoxical! LOL, it makes my head swim to contemplate it. The hard part for me it to try and discern where this connundrum began. If we accept that the cycle started in 1973, before Dean was born and without his interferrence ... then somehow the events we saw: the YED in the neighborhood, the Campbells getting involved because of Liddy whatserface, the YED killing Samuel and Deanna ... would ( ... )
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(The comment has been removed)
Yes but Castiel as an Angel has no right to free will as granted by God to mortal man (according to Christianity). He must do as God wills, ie bring Dean out of perdition.
Which leads to your comment about the plan "being on the cards since Day One"...just thinking about it now does Castiel state that sending Dean back was God's will or only that now Dean know's all that the Angels know...and if you believe that this is all preordained by God then he would know the endgame of Azazel and Lilith and be prepared for it wouldn't he? He created the Fallen Ones as he created all other Angels and has, according to Chrisitan mythology preordained their actions.) To what purpose? Or is he just the great puppet master ( and this is my problem with the whole preordained thing...) ... sorry i think i just beat myself to death with my attempt at logic :-)
Please some one stop me now!! :-)
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Thanks for pointing this out! :)
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I'd noticed it was called the Willow motel, but what this question makes me think is that Sam is being paralleled with DarkWillow from Buffy :D
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I thought exactly the same thing but total CRACK! :-D
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