Over the last few years I've really struggled with one question. Why is it that so many people are so happy to swill around in their own muck, and never really do anything about it
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The conundrum.goodbrainsFebruary 27 2008, 04:20:02 UTC
Great Matrix correlative! Thats the rub, to me it seems that we are all working off the multiple choice modality, we have free will to make of our selves what we will but are constrained by the environment and the circumstances of birth/biology.
Re: The conundrum.notnotabouthimApril 13 2008, 13:41:52 UTC
ok, I didn't reply to this initially because I wasn't sure what you meant ("multiple choice modality"?), but I think I follow you now.
Mostly I think I agree with you - the initial parameters of our existence (ie, nature+nurture) certainly alter things, however I do firmly believe that we can, if we choose, overcome any of those initial parameters - and here is a good, obvious example.
Ie, as deterministic as some of these things may seem, ultimately, they really are non-deterministic, if we believe them to be so.
Re: The conundrum.goodbrainsApril 19 2008, 17:48:13 UTC
I agree if you are aware of your deficits you can strategically modify your behavior to overcome them. What if you are not aware or capable of being aware of those deficits (schizophrenia, downs syndrome, autism). Belief will work when one is aware of the issue and can work/believe in a strategy to overcome the problem (e.f.t.). One can 'give' it over to god but then it is out of your hands again and back into pre-determinism (god being omniscient).
I have not watched the trilogy as of late but I always favored the Merovingian (kewl french guy), he emphasized the 'why' in behavior, Neo didn't get it until he communed with the Oracle & Architect and discovered the 'why' to his behavior. He was then able to forecast a new route to achieving his goals that he could not have conceived before hand.
This whole process, seems to me to be an ever expanding circle of awareness that gives one more control through forecasting over ones 'destiny'.
Life as PokerfringekittyApril 19 2008, 21:30:25 UTC
First, players are dealt a hand (Nature & Nurture). Then they need to determine the relative advantages and disadvantages of that hand (Awareness) to decide whether they will draw more cards. (Self Determination) However, taking new cards is still a gamble, and I've yet to see one poker player manifest a royal straight flush just by praying, wishing, thinking or desiring enough. Although, there are those with a greater awareness of all the cards in play, such as card counters, whose skills contribute greatly to their chances
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I kinda agree and kinda don't...
anonymous
April 13 2008, 10:49:34 UTC
Ok, finally got around to reading your blog, and couldn't help but respond to this one (it was meant to be, I had no choice, you know)...
I was thinking the following line of thought to myself a while back... :
...since all matter basically behaves in a predicatable way (notwithstanding that quantum physics stuff, which we just haven't figured out yet, but I'm sure we will at some point),
...and since at the moment of the Big Bang, all matter was essentially in one place at the same time, and moved out in a predicatble fashion ever since,
...then sure there can be no existentialism, since everything was predetermined at the moment of BB anyway... if every particle, moves in predictable ways, then that must logically also include us, and our environment - not just the stars, the planets and all the astronomy stuff. So everything has a predefined plan, and determinism wins.
BUT, we can't see the plan. And no matter what I decide, it is new to , even if it's not for the universe
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Amusingly, the first time I heard this chain-of-causes argument was as a proof of God - the "Original Causer" that kicked it all off.
Also on a side note, have a read of this (second to last para under 'Theory') - basically, even quantum mechanics is deterministic - except if you try to measure it, then it's random (ie non-deterministic). Not sure how that affects everything.
I think you make a very interesting, if extremely curly point - that many more determined minds than I have considered for centuries. I'm not sure there's a simple answer. One postulation I have heard is that there are infinite universes (or possible timelines), and every time anyone makes a decision, they split off another possible universe. This does neatly side step the determinist/existentialist problem - since each individual universe is in itself deterministic, but we live along our own, constantly branching, existentialist timeline
( ... )
Re: I kinda agree and kinda don't...
anonymous
April 13 2008, 20:26:11 UTC
Ah, but you're still stuck on this illusion of free will... surely the idea of free will is brought on by a belief in a random universe? If the universe is totally predictable (and again, not by us humans - yet), then the path is already laid out before us, and believing in free will is essentially useless.
Yes we can change what appears to be our environment, but look at it this way - lets assume that rabbits also believe in free will (remember fiver!), and they also believe that they can change their environment. But if you take an empty embankment, and add a bunch of rabbits to it, you and I can predict what that environment will look like in six months.
A intelligent non-human observer looking at the earth can see exactly what will happen in the next few thousand years if he knows how we humans behave. It's all just a matter of scale. So to what extent do we have free will, and to what extent is it just preprogrammed into our innermost particles?
Free will is an illusion brought on by a lack of perspective.
Re: I kinda agree and kinda don't...notnotabouthimApril 14 2008, 00:05:48 UTC
1. Again, a subject discussed for thousands of years - "do we have free will?" Best go here. That's going to provide a better summary than I can.
2. You believe we don't have free will (you're a determinist). That's perfectly fine - I believe (I'm an existentialist) that free will allows you to choose to believe anything you like, even self-limiting tautologies such as this :)
3. If you don't have free will, why even get out of bed in the morning? Isn't that the most incredible self-limiting, powerless feeling possible? Where's the point in doing anything?
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well, that's the thing I'm (slowly) learning. If you swing it just right, you really can, pretty much, make up any rules you like.
It's.. really quite awesome.
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Mostly I think I agree with you - the initial parameters of our existence (ie, nature+nurture) certainly alter things, however I do firmly believe that we can, if we choose, overcome any of those initial parameters - and here is a good, obvious example.
Ie, as deterministic as some of these things may seem, ultimately, they really are non-deterministic, if we believe them to be so.
Reply
I have not watched the trilogy as of late but I always favored the Merovingian (kewl french guy), he emphasized the 'why' in behavior, Neo didn't get it until he communed with the Oracle & Architect and discovered the 'why' to his behavior. He was then able to forecast a new route to achieving his goals that he could not have conceived before hand.
This whole process, seems to me to be an ever expanding circle of awareness that gives one more control through forecasting over ones 'destiny'.
Great Thread!
Reply
Reply
I was thinking the following line of thought to myself a while back... :
...since all matter basically behaves in a predicatable way (notwithstanding that quantum physics stuff, which we just haven't figured out yet, but I'm sure we will at some point),
...and since at the moment of the Big Bang, all matter was essentially in one place at the same time, and moved out in a predicatble fashion ever since,
...then sure there can be no existentialism, since everything was predetermined at the moment of BB anyway... if every particle, moves in predictable ways, then that must logically also include us, and our environment - not just the stars, the planets and all the astronomy stuff. So everything has a predefined plan, and determinism wins.
BUT, we can't see the plan. And no matter what I decide, it is new to , even if it's not for the universe ( ... )
Reply
Amusingly, the first time I heard this chain-of-causes argument was as a proof of God - the "Original Causer" that kicked it all off.
Also on a side note, have a read of this (second to last para under 'Theory') - basically, even quantum mechanics is deterministic - except if you try to measure it, then it's random (ie non-deterministic). Not sure how that affects everything.
I think you make a very interesting, if extremely curly point - that many more determined minds than I have considered for centuries. I'm not sure there's a simple answer. One postulation I have heard is that there are infinite universes (or possible timelines), and every time anyone makes a decision, they split off another possible universe. This does neatly side step the determinist/existentialist problem - since each individual universe is in itself deterministic, but we live along our own, constantly branching, existentialist timeline ( ... )
Reply
Yes we can change what appears to be our environment, but look at it this way - lets assume that rabbits also believe in free will (remember fiver!), and they also believe that they can change their environment. But if you take an empty embankment, and add a bunch of rabbits to it, you and I can predict what that environment will look like in six months.
A intelligent non-human observer looking at the earth can see exactly what will happen in the next few thousand years if he knows how we humans behave. It's all just a matter of scale. So to what extent do we have free will, and to what extent is it just preprogrammed into our innermost particles?
Free will is an illusion brought on by a lack of perspective.
- Jack M.
Reply
2. You believe we don't have free will (you're a determinist). That's perfectly fine - I believe (I'm an existentialist) that free will allows you to choose to believe anything you like, even self-limiting tautologies such as this :)
3. If you don't have free will, why even get out of bed in the morning? Isn't that the most incredible self-limiting, powerless feeling possible? Where's the point in doing anything?
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