An exercise in not being rude at all to see what kind of responses I'll get.
I'll make the case point by point, and I will try to be polite, keep any rudeness out, and not try to start a wankfight. Even people who disagree a lot can have civil discussions if we want to, right?
1. Sarcasm =/= hypocricy. Especially since the OP was at least tangentally mentioning JL in her rant. Which is fine, but since her main argument was "not all K/F fans suck," the non-serious response which she said was nonserious (ex: first sentence here) is not her actually saying Kuro/Fye fans suck. Therefore, not hypocritical.
2. I think you may have noticed this by now, because I think I saw you comment somewhere that you understood it? But yeah, the post about black characters was again, sarcasm. Specifically because people were telling her that the exact same things said about female characters would not be misogynistic, but that sort of thing would be racist. And while I agree that to a certain extent, it's the characterization of a lot of female characters that fans find annoying, whereas you don't see that as much with other-racial characters (though I'm sure if I found a black character in a manga who was full of racist stereotypes, I'd hate it for that very reason--though that would be... sort of the exact opposite of racism? like hating stereotypically weak wah wah weepy clingy girl characters could very well be the opposite of misogeny)... yes, I do agree with that, but when it comes to real bashing, like these-characters-should-die bashing, you can't really have it both ways (for black characters it's racism, but for female characters it's just fine).
(Edit note: I'm not saying in the above that use of sarcasm is especially mature, as it does come across as mocking. But also keeping in mind that I've used sarcasm myself in arguments, and I think everybody has at least once--we're not all perfect machines and sometimes we don't really care if we're being especially mature. Just people, and all. that.
Just had to add that in. ;;)
3. Again, this has already been covered, but: yes, any transgressions over the Internet, that do not in fact involve the torture and death of many people, really shouldn't be equated with Nazism, if only because it will really hurt people who are closer to that then most (have family who were in concentration camps, are Jewish, etc). Also, it's pretty well-known that bringing up the word "Nazi" or "Hitler" in a name-calling online lowers your credibility by a lot--not that it's really important if it's something you don't care about, but if you do actually want to make a point without people immediately ignoring you and busting out with "GODWIN'S LAW LOLZ," it'd be something to avoid. (This is meant more as a tip than a bash, note--if it is something you'd like to take into account and didn't really know, it could be useful in the future? :/)
4. This has been explained. I don't blame you if you really haven't seen it, but if you're ignoring it, that's... not right. Just in case, either way, the bones of the disagreement will be reiterated now: su_chan did not in fact make "a joke." She deliberately (and yes, she admitted to it later) spent hours saying things that she knew would hurt JL's feelings, distress her, and make her angry, just because she was bored (again, also admitted later). This was while they were friendly. If one of my friends did something like this, I think I wouldn't trust them anymore, either. I assume that if you were given the same treatment, you'd agree.
5. It's not the disliking of female characters, per se--there have in fact been conversations in clamp_rants in which people state exactly why they don't like certain female characters (generally going back to them being portrayed as weak; they often like strong female characters). No one calls her a misogynist because she doesn't like Sakura. It's saying that she's happy when Sakura gets stabbed, and that if she died the manga will be better, that has many people annoyed--even pissed off, though I honestly can't understand personally getting pissed off over anything over the Internet.
6. ... This just had to be mentioned because I feel it's an odd argument. No, being attracted only to guys doesn't make you a sexist. It either makes you... straight or gay depending on which gender you are. However, if you went around saying that female characters sucked and should die so they wouldn't get in the way of the male cast, yes, I would (and a lot of people obviously would) call that sexist.
7. Even if JL didn't hate her, she doesn't trust her. Whether either of us feel she has reason to, it doesn't matter. Not everyone has to be friends over the Internet.
8. None of the "shit" posted about her is in fact because of the disagreement. In fact, the most recent rant "about her" in clamp_rants was not actually about her. The girl told her personally it was not about her, and edited the entry to state that she was not attacking an individual, but just baffled and annoyed by an attitude amongst some of the fandom. I don't know if you have seen the edits, because it makes sense not to check back all the time. But "although it was the conversation mentioned above that compelled me to post this here, the rant was not directed at that person, nor was it about that person in particular" seems pretty clear.
9. Ranting about something does not always necessarily mean getting worked up over it. Some of those rants obviously are, but a lot are just people going "wtf wry this is suck." And I get your argument, but you are getting worked up over something that "isn't real life" too--if you're mad and think other people are idiots for doing the same well... I realize we can't control how we feel, and that makes for automatic hypocricy in everyone (including me), but you should also realize that you're doing it, so I'm pointing it out now. If they need to calm down, so do you in this case, for the same reason--and if you believe you have reasons that mean you don't need to calm down, it isn't that much of a leap to understand that these people feel that they have reasons as well.
10. A-again the Nazi thing, so not restating. But to rehash a point that I think was already made... somewhere? If you are going to post something, yes, even in your personal journal, that is potentially wanky--even just an opinion that could have strong agreements and strong disagreements... expecting only to get agreements and praise and being put out when you don't isn't reasonable or realistic.
I really hope my argument came across as reasonable as I was honestly trying to be. I don't want wank. And I don't want to be called a troll, either--but if you think I am one, and want to call me one, could you explain why? Thanks.
PS: This is addressed to one person, it's just that I felt it needed written and just found out, after finishing the whole thing, that the journal in question (or at least the entry) has disabled anonymous and non-friend posting. Soooo yeah, lotsa tl;dr up there.
1. Sarcasm =/= hypocricy. Especially since the OP was at least tangentally mentioning JL in her rant. Which is fine, but since her main argument was "not all K/F fans suck," the non-serious response which she said was nonserious (ex: first sentence here) is not her actually saying Kuro/Fye fans suck. Therefore, not hypocritical.
2. I think you may have noticed this by now, because I think I saw you comment somewhere that you understood it? But yeah, the post about black characters was again, sarcasm. Specifically because people were telling her that the exact same things said about female characters would not be misogynistic, but that sort of thing would be racist. And while I agree that to a certain extent, it's the characterization of a lot of female characters that fans find annoying, whereas you don't see that as much with other-racial characters (though I'm sure if I found a black character in a manga who was full of racist stereotypes, I'd hate it for that very reason--though that would be... sort of the exact opposite of racism? like hating stereotypically weak wah wah weepy clingy girl characters could very well be the opposite of misogeny)... yes, I do agree with that, but when it comes to real bashing, like these-characters-should-die bashing, you can't really have it both ways (for black characters it's racism, but for female characters it's just fine).
(Edit note: I'm not saying in the above that use of sarcasm is especially mature, as it does come across as mocking. But also keeping in mind that I've used sarcasm myself in arguments, and I think everybody has at least once--we're not all perfect machines and sometimes we don't really care if we're being especially mature. Just people, and all. that.
Just had to add that in. ;;)
3. Again, this has already been covered, but: yes, any transgressions over the Internet, that do not in fact involve the torture and death of many people, really shouldn't be equated with Nazism, if only because it will really hurt people who are closer to that then most (have family who were in concentration camps, are Jewish, etc). Also, it's pretty well-known that bringing up the word "Nazi" or "Hitler" in a name-calling online lowers your credibility by a lot--not that it's really important if it's something you don't care about, but if you do actually want to make a point without people immediately ignoring you and busting out with "GODWIN'S LAW LOLZ," it'd be something to avoid. (This is meant more as a tip than a bash, note--if it is something you'd like to take into account and didn't really know, it could be useful in the future? :/)
4. This has been explained. I don't blame you if you really haven't seen it, but if you're ignoring it, that's... not right. Just in case, either way, the bones of the disagreement will be reiterated now: su_chan did not in fact make "a joke." She deliberately (and yes, she admitted to it later) spent hours saying things that she knew would hurt JL's feelings, distress her, and make her angry, just because she was bored (again, also admitted later). This was while they were friendly. If one of my friends did something like this, I think I wouldn't trust them anymore, either. I assume that if you were given the same treatment, you'd agree.
5. It's not the disliking of female characters, per se--there have in fact been conversations in clamp_rants in which people state exactly why they don't like certain female characters (generally going back to them being portrayed as weak; they often like strong female characters). No one calls her a misogynist because she doesn't like Sakura. It's saying that she's happy when Sakura gets stabbed, and that if she died the manga will be better, that has many people annoyed--even pissed off, though I honestly can't understand personally getting pissed off over anything over the Internet.
6. ... This just had to be mentioned because I feel it's an odd argument. No, being attracted only to guys doesn't make you a sexist. It either makes you... straight or gay depending on which gender you are. However, if you went around saying that female characters sucked and should die so they wouldn't get in the way of the male cast, yes, I would (and a lot of people obviously would) call that sexist.
7. Even if JL didn't hate her, she doesn't trust her. Whether either of us feel she has reason to, it doesn't matter. Not everyone has to be friends over the Internet.
8. None of the "shit" posted about her is in fact because of the disagreement. In fact, the most recent rant "about her" in clamp_rants was not actually about her. The girl told her personally it was not about her, and edited the entry to state that she was not attacking an individual, but just baffled and annoyed by an attitude amongst some of the fandom. I don't know if you have seen the edits, because it makes sense not to check back all the time. But "although it was the conversation mentioned above that compelled me to post this here, the rant was not directed at that person, nor was it about that person in particular" seems pretty clear.
9. Ranting about something does not always necessarily mean getting worked up over it. Some of those rants obviously are, but a lot are just people going "wtf wry this is suck." And I get your argument, but you are getting worked up over something that "isn't real life" too--if you're mad and think other people are idiots for doing the same well... I realize we can't control how we feel, and that makes for automatic hypocricy in everyone (including me), but you should also realize that you're doing it, so I'm pointing it out now. If they need to calm down, so do you in this case, for the same reason--and if you believe you have reasons that mean you don't need to calm down, it isn't that much of a leap to understand that these people feel that they have reasons as well.
10. A-again the Nazi thing, so not restating. But to rehash a point that I think was already made... somewhere? If you are going to post something, yes, even in your personal journal, that is potentially wanky--even just an opinion that could have strong agreements and strong disagreements... expecting only to get agreements and praise and being put out when you don't isn't reasonable or realistic.
I really hope my argument came across as reasonable as I was honestly trying to be. I don't want wank. And I don't want to be called a troll, either--but if you think I am one, and want to call me one, could you explain why? Thanks.
PS: This is addressed to one person, it's just that I felt it needed written and just found out, after finishing the whole thing, that the journal in question (or at least the entry) has disabled anonymous and non-friend posting. Soooo yeah, lotsa tl;dr up there.