What About The Mens?

[onceupon]

And another thing.

So, a little while ago, an online friend posted about how, even as a father and home-owner, and married person, he doesn’t feel like a man. He was kind of nostalgic for the rituals of manhood, some ideal of manliness that would give a security of identity. And while many people sympathized, my problem (and the problem many other

Comments

[onceupon]

I am c&ping this from a similar response I made on The Rotund because I NEEEEEEEEED to get to bed earlier tonight. :D

I think, annecdotally, that many more women are at this place than men - and I keep seeing men ask what it means to be men in a world that is so different (and in which the difference is increasing) from their expectations given their gender. I really wish we could talk about what it means to be an adult because I DO agree with people that we’ve lost our meaningful adulthood rituals because adulthood looks so individual now. But I also don’t want to dismiss the struggle of people who are searching for some kind of identity that involves their gender.

It’s easy for me, as a cisperson, to say that my gender is nonessential in my identity construct - but it’s also untrue and ill-considered. It’s just that my gender identity doesn’t have to be as considered because people usually id me in my preferred manner. Does that make sense?

[bummble]

Hear, hear!

[onceupon]

Rereading this morning when I am awake - I think we are talking about two different things. OF COURSE any gender can be masculine or feminine. I don't think my discussion of what I'd like to see men teach other men negates that. On a personal level, I don't feel like it's okay to tell other people how to define their gender. So when I see men saying they don't feel like MEN, I don't think the answer is to dismiss their concern. It isn't even just a question from cisgendered men - it's the idea of manhood in general. And, really, it isn't new; it's been a topic since feminism reared its head (how to define manhood without the binary opposition

[naamah_darling]

I have just been really confused/frustrated/amused by the whole dialogue. As someone with a fluid inner gender identity, the whole "what is masculine/feminine" debate is laughable, even when both terms are expanded to mean, basically, exactly the same thing

[onceupon]

I am c&ping this from a similar response I made on The Rotund because I NEEEEEEEEED to get to bed earlier tonight. :D

I think, annecdotally, that many more women are at this place than men - and I keep seeing men ask what it means to be men in a world that is so different (and in which the difference is increasing) from their expectations given their gender. I really wish we could talk about what it means to be an adult because I DO agree with people that we’ve lost our meaningful adulthood rituals because adulthood looks so individual now. But I also don’t want to dismiss the struggle of people who are searching for some kind of identity that involves their gender.

It’s easy for me, as a cisperson, to say that my gender is nonessential in my identity construct - but it’s also untrue and ill-considered. It’s just that my gender identity doesn’t have to be as considered because people usually id me in my preferred manner. Does that make sense?

[maevele]

I want to snuggle this comment. All the binary gender essentialism getting thrown around in recent discussions gives me the explodies. If I can deal with my complicated gender without bending to the patriarchal codes, why can't a cis-guy define his without defining what others are not?

[onceupon]

As I said in my post - I think gender is predominantly cultural construction but I think it's a damn foolish thing to completely disregard gender as inborn identity. If there weren't SOMETHING going on then we'd all be cisgendered, wouldn't we

[houseboatonstyx]

Is this about maturity or about gender?

If it's about gender ... then you're not very mature.

[onceupon]

How pithy - and as though you didn't actually read the post at all.

[onceupon]

It's really difficult, isn't it? That's why the original post stuck with me - I really do understand WHY people latch on to old definitions when there is such a lack of definition otherwise. But if we're going to move forward I think we - and, really, I mean men - need to do some work to actually figure out what masculinity is without belittling anything else. If they can't do it, that's just as valuable - probably more valuable, because it just proves the point that it doesn't actually matter.

And issues of masculinity aside, these are still things I want men to be doing. It's interesting how some people have latched on to disputing the idea that we need to define masculinity (and that's fine - I don't feel particularly pressed to define it; I just keep seeing men who are struggling with it) when what I worried would be a problem were my actual suggestions! *laugh*

[maevele]

Wait, they are upset because they do not have a patriarchal standard to uphold anymore to prove they are manli-men? and I am supposed to give a what now?

if it was just the feeling like an adult trope, I'd be smooth with it, but defining manliness winds up defining womanliness, and both are busted ass concepts that are playing for the kyriarchy.

[onceupon]

This is why I EXCPLICITLY am saying that if men are in such need of a definition that they need to develop one that is not dependent on binary opposition.

[maevele]

fer sure.