Separate But Equal

[onionsoupmix]

About a month ago, I wrote a post about the state of women's education in chabad.

So it seems  that the state of men's education in chabad is not much better.  From this post in this thread:

Most guys cannot learn Gemara at all. Most guys don't know any hebrew grammar. Most guys can't learn any chassidus beyond sichos and maamarim of the Rebbe; and

Comments

how things are

[anonymous]

We definitely have a SERIOUS problem today. The curriculum in our yeshivas is not designed (more precisely, was never adapted) to accommodate the following

Re: how things are

[anonymous]

and the real crime of it all is that if the yeshivas would stop pretending they are educating future rabbonim and roshei yeshiva and would just focus on teaching the basics to an average student - more years on Chumash (no Yddish teitch for the non-native Yiddish speaker either!), basic dikduk, nach, introduce Talmud at a much older age (~15), only basic simple chasidus - all these young men would actually get an education and be able to learn and enjoy learning for the rest of their lives!

- cfkaMP

p.s. Only which yeshiva would want to be known for having a 'slower' curriculum? Also, this would mean having to create another track for the gifted, and "we can't we denigrate the other boys!" Very sad.

Re: how things are

[onionsoupmix]

I think you are right on the yiddish teitch thing. It seems to be a status indication but it looks so impractical for many of the kids. I have the same beef with schools who try to have the kids translate chumash into ivrit ( the whole ivrit b'ivrit) program b/c the kids just end up translating from one text they don't understand to another language they don't understand... They had a big debate about this a while ago in the neshei news and basically it came down to the camp that cited the rebbe as being a proponent of yiddish so it all has to be in yiddish.

Re: how things are

[anonymous]

"the rebbe as being a proponent of yiddish so it all has to be in yiddish"

I know. A retarded argument. Yes, the Rebbe was a proponent of Yeddish. But the Rebbe spoke about the virtues of the language and the importance of speaking it, not about teaching Torah in Yiddish to non-Yiddish speakers!

So LEARN the darn language BEFORE you try breaking your teeth teaching kids Chumash in the darn language! IDIOTS.

And, if you really want to teach in this language, the only answer for the kids from the non-Yidish speaking homes is is full immersion. That means Yiddish is the only language the kids and teachers hear and have to speak in school. Otherwise, drop the pretense and just teach in English.

- cfkaMP

even their rabbis! yes, even them!

[stjust]

reminds me of one of their shluchim (then an assistant rabbi), now in an important posting in a City financial centre

a simple factor

[stjust]

reported smichas at chabad in 6 months vs several years at reits.
how much can they study in 6 months?

Re: a simple factor

[stjust]

there is no such thing as semicha in Chabad in 6 months.
The material studies for Semicha i Chabad is:
- Bosor beCholov
- Taarivos
- Melicha
- Shabbos or Treios
Within a structure of a good semicha program this material is learned very well - including covering all the major Pri Megodim - in a year to a year and a half. If REITS takes longer, it has to be because they limit the semicha studies to a smaller part of the day (more hour to still studying Gemara, even for semeicha students).

- cfkaMP

Re: a simple factor

[stjust]

Granted, cfkaMP
yet there are baalei batim availing of such smicha programs while attending to their businesses, or jobs, meeting their rov 2 to 3 times a week that can get smicho in 1 to 1 1/2 year(s)
how do u compare this with other yeshivas where they also study gemores, (chulin comes to mind) be it reits or ner of baltimore?
why the urgency for numbers to graduate as many as possible? i know of more than one who such rabbis -wonderful individuals- who can't understand much chumesh reading comprehension on their own. what is it? alexandria shebemitzroym?

Re: a simple factor

[stjust]

don't know about 'baalei batim' semicha programs; perhaps they exist, I just never heard of them

chumash

[anonymous]

On the oft-repeated "Chumash & Rashi" canard. This certainly NOT a test of rabbinic knowledge, not by a long shot.

I have spoken with real talmidei chachomim (including the litvishe kind) who can't REALLY learn chumash. Sure, the can translate (in a rudimentary way) the stuff, but have never invested much time into this study and definitely never took it seriously. They therefore don't really understand the many complex linguistic issues that Rashi (and other meforshim) are dealing with and many of these texts are really a closed book to them.

- cfkaMP

Re: chumash

[onionsoupmix]

I don't get it. How are they real talmidei chachomim if they don't know chumash and rashi? It's like calling someone a brilliant neurosurgeon if they can't understand a basic chemistry text.

Re: chumash

[anonymous]

chumash & rashi isn't 'basic'. it is mistakenly viewed that way. study ramban, he didn't consider it 'basic'.

the study of mikra is as serious a field as any other. someone may be a boki beshas, but never gave a mikra any serious time.

-cfkaMP

Re: chumash

[onionsoupmix]

Ok, I will take your word for it, although I can't really imagine a talmid chochom with limited chumash skills.

[barilanisher]

Let take as an example science major program in any college in non-English speaking country (like for example the country where I did my major in science, Israel). Since all literature and textbooks are in English, the program starting with improvement of English language skills to the certain level. This way of education is logical, it makes sense, and it proved itself. Let see now Yeshiva-Torah education. Very simple to start it with Hebrew learning, but no, gevald, to learn Hebrew per se considered to be too much modern, haskallah-like. The results are that the even best American “Bohrim” need English translation (Shokenshtein etc) to learn Gemarah. So they don’t actually differ from Baal Abosim coming for evening Daf Hayomi. But these Baal Habosim are experts in something alse at least, when gurnisht bohrim pretend to be experts in Torah, lying to themselves and to other people. Btw, most of the Litvashers in the US, at least partially to solve this problem, send Bohrim for couple of years to Israeli Yeshivot, where they learn

Why?

[barilanisher]

But not Lubavichers, they have opposite attitude, to send Isrealis for a year in New-York (so-called kvutza, not clear why need it today).

Why? Of course to visit their rebbe.