The mosque, well, there are a lot of things in the context and subtext that make the textual level analysis lacking. I don't like the idea at all; I am aware that my reaction stems from rational, visceral, emotional and intellectual impulses that are sometimes contradictory
( ... )
I think breastfeeding is a good analogy too. But it seems that with many things there is a pendulum that swings back and forth between extreme positions until people find a middle ground.
Like with breastfeeding et al, some women feel like they have been restricted and relegated to smelly office bathrooms (for good reason) so now the pendulum has swung back to whip-em-out-week. But that's weird too.
Personally, I have no objection to either the Kiryas Yoel sign or the Mosque. I also think that legally, neither presents a problem - however, the sign, assuming it is on public property, should be bound by the same rules and regulations as any advertisement (e.g. municipal taxation, size limitation if any etc).
I also think that the mosque project had been presented in a somewhat provocative way (which is not to say it shouldn't be built; IMHO it could be a good idea to auction a dozen or so lots on ground zero to various communities that can afford it - perhaps limiting to "spiritual" communities only, or at least to non-profits).
I also support Greg Gutfield's plans of opening a gay bar next to ground zero that would cater to gay Islamic men, and will even have a whole non-alcoholic floor. Obviously, those founding fathers of the mosque who are consistent in their views, will perceive the bar in the same spirit of understanding and tolerance which they justly expect from the greater public themselves.
Well, AFAIK everyone is to be welcome @ the club. It just targets gay Islamic men specifically, but is open 2 all. Even straight Christians (or do you think that would be pushing it too far?).
It's quite simple the Mosque as I understand it (remember I am British) is not contravening any law so they can build it. They had just better be careful that they don't do anything illegal. The Kiryas Yoel sign may or not be legal but until someone passes a law that says I can't hold my husband's hand in public if I want to I won't feel obliged to take any notice (if they pass such a law you will find me and probably the husband re-locating to the barricades).
This sign once again illustrates all the reasons why I find certain aspects of some streams of Orthodoxy distasteful and why my mother left Orthodox Judaism. This being said there was no gender separation in the United Orthodox youth groups of her day, she remembers the then Chief Rabbi of the UK addressing a mixed group where many of the youth (both genders) were wearing shorts and this in the late 1950s. The greater majority of her contemporaries married in and have raised their kids within the faith and community.
They can put up every sign under the sun but if their requests are not enforceable under local law then I retain my right to ignore them. If they hassle me then they are infringing my rights. If they truly want to live in a closed community then they have to raise the money to purchase the land and maintain their own infrastructure like any private gated community.
Right, I'm with you on their requests not being enforceable and hassling not allowed. But should they remove their signs because those signs offend you and me?
It's an honest question. Those sign don't offend me, they anger and embarrass me and I would be very happy (and surprised) if they took them down. I don't want to be associated with people who need to have everyone gender separated in public...sheesh. But I was just thinking that if I want Kiryas Yoel to take those signs down just b/c they offend people, how am I all that different than those who argue that the mosque should not be built so as not to offend?
Interesting,barilanisherSeptember 1 2010, 11:29:55 UTC
If residents of some middle-class neighborhood, bordering with Hasidic/Ultra Orthodox community, would put road sign asking visitors to be showered, shaved and normally dressed? Why not? Feelings of Hasidim are offended by seeing a girl in tight jeans. Feelings of normative middle-class citizens are also offended by observing 30-years old long black closes that newer saw dry clean, wigs looking like cat crashed on highway, beards with remaining of cholent within, and by feeling of strong body odor so typical to our pious keepers of Torah and Mitzvot.
Re: Interesting,barilanisherSeptember 5 2010, 17:18:13 UTC
And if our neighborhoods had signs saying:
Dear Bigots:
If you get hurt in our neighborhoods, do NOT call Hatzoloh because we will run you over - after all you scream "Dros Kol Dos" at us all the time.
If you need medical care, do NOT contact us. You are a goy, not a Jew, and we will not help you.
If your son is in jail or dead while abroad, don't tell us. You know we'll just sell his organs...
Well, they don't. You and Onion will be the first ones crying to us when you need help. I know your type well - but you are Jewish and much as we have to hold OUR noses when listening to YOUR vile and malodorous slander, we help you because you are one of us.
Re: Interesting,onionsoupmixSeptember 5 2010, 20:35:51 UTC
Um... are you confusing Satmar with Chabad? You think the Satmar community in Kiryas Yoel are going to raise money for my medical care or my son's pidyon shevuim?
Re: The analogy is forcedonionsoupmixSeptember 1 2010, 12:50:09 UTC
I write what interests me. This interests me. I deliberatly don't stick to writing when I have something good to say, and it seems that neither do you :)
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I also think that legally, neither presents a problem - however, the sign, assuming it is on public property, should be bound by the same rules and regulations as any advertisement (e.g. municipal taxation, size limitation if any etc).
I also think that the mosque project had been presented in a somewhat provocative way (which is not to say it shouldn't be built; IMHO it could be a good idea to auction a dozen or so lots on ground zero to various communities that can afford it - perhaps limiting to "spiritual" communities only, or at least to non-profits).
I also support Greg Gutfield's plans of opening a gay bar next to ground zero that would cater to gay Islamic men, and will even have a whole non-alcoholic floor. Obviously, those founding fathers of the mosque who are consistent in their views, will perceive the bar in the same spirit of understanding and tolerance which they justly expect from the greater public themselves.
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What happened to Islamic women? Why are they left out :)
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Where exactly is the strip club?
Адрес в студию!
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Happy to help.
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This sign once again illustrates all the reasons why I find certain aspects of some streams of Orthodoxy distasteful and why my mother left Orthodox Judaism. This being said there was no gender separation in the United Orthodox youth groups of her day, she remembers the then Chief Rabbi of the UK addressing a mixed group where many of the youth (both genders) were wearing shorts and this in the late 1950s. The greater majority of her contemporaries married in and have raised their kids within the faith and community.
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It's an honest question. Those sign don't offend me, they anger and embarrass me and I would be very happy (and surprised) if they took them down. I don't want to be associated with people who need to have everyone gender separated in public...sheesh. But I was just thinking that if I want Kiryas Yoel to take those signs down just b/c they offend people, how am I all that different than those who argue that the mosque should not be built so as not to offend?
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Dear Bigots:
If you get hurt in our neighborhoods, do NOT call Hatzoloh because we will run you over - after all you scream "Dros Kol Dos" at us all the time.
If you need medical care, do NOT contact us. You are a goy, not a Jew, and we will not help you.
If your son is in jail or dead while abroad, don't tell us. You know we'll just sell his organs...
Well, they don't. You and Onion will be the first ones crying to us when you need help. I know your type well - but you are Jewish and much as we have to hold OUR noses when listening to YOUR vile and malodorous slander, we help you because you are one of us.
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Stick to writing when you have something good to say, you were on a roll for a while...
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