There's Something Wrong With Our Neighbors, Mommy. They Kiss Each Other Like the Chilonim.

[onionsoupmix]

From here:

My 12 year old Charedi daughter came in to me this evening and asked me if husbands and wives are allowed to hug and kiss.

Comments

[oneironstring]

So . . . she didn't get any "chinuch" about the impropriety of being a Peeping Tom into other people's personal and private domain?

What would have been so wrong about just saying that is what married people do but it should be kept private and your sorry that she witnessed that? What do they expect her to think on her wedding night, or do they not think that far ahead?

[aunt_becca]

exactly what I was thinking. A good teaching moment about privacy, as well as teaching her that this is something married men and women do. It's a sad lesson for her to think it's "wrong," and a great way for her to devlop really unhealthy ideas about sex. Plus, once she figues out where babies come from, her mom and dad are going to have a LOT of explaining to do.

[kmelion]

The irony is the girl was 'Oiver' an Averah by peeping yet the couple was not 'Oiver' an Averah of making out... unless it wasn't actually her husband she was making out with or she was Niddah.

[onionsoupmix]

I don't know if she was peeping, it seems like they just accidentally left their blinds open. Why would she know not to continue watching? If I was 12 and saw someone eating a ham sandwich on yom kippur, why would I think to look away?

Lying for chizzuk

[anonymous]

I recall from Dr. Marc Shapiro that Hatam Sofer did articulate somewhere (MS will be able to cite it, as I'm sure will others), that one can even say something is an issur d'oraita, even if it is not - if it will encourage proper compliance. I understand that Charedim can so cleave HKBHs world from HKBHs Torah which 'is not in heaven' (and thus...logically can only be done IN His world; a pointless-for-being-true argument for T.I.D.E./TorahuMaddah/MO), that they can build and live lives around metaphorical or proposed 'spiritual' "truths" - that utterly contradict pashut reality of HKBHs world; I can understand that, if they chose to live this way. But this is sick; this child will be part of everyones future, unless she honestly does not leave her neighborhood or home. That this girl, of any age, was told this is to me horrific beyond imagination; I can't imagine a scenario where seeing this couple kissing will be THE LAST AND ONLY such incident she has; but now that abba has tied perceived behavior with non-observance, with "

Likely did not know what she saw/heard

[anonymous]

I would guess that she did not know what it was that she saw or heard. Could have been more than "kissing"... It would be more appropriate for the mom to handle it - and she should have discussed it more, asked what she actually saw, etc. - instead of repressing it.

See original. Not so bad. at first. Re: Likely did not know what she saw/heard

[anonymous]

This is from the original. Not so bad at first....
...........
I probably made the biggest mistake of my life and told her that husbands and wives can do that but that it's not tznius to have the windows open. She was not happy with that answer and of course, started to ask me about her father and myself I didn't give her a straight answer but I did let her know that it's normal and natural.
When DH found this out he was not a happy camper. He would rather have her think that the neighbors are pervs or something

Re: See original. Not so bad. at first. Re: Likely did not know what she saw/heard

[bringing_peace]

and children are found in cabbage patches or a delivered by a bird?

Looks like the guy doesn't want any grandchildren.

[mrn613]

I agree with the previous poster that this couple is soooo obviously BT charedi; those views are not representative of charedi judaism, only what the OP of that thinks is chareidi Judaism. FS's advice was so sane and structured, clearly she is charedi from birth.

In my not so limited experience of chareidi orthodox parenting girls are the wife's domain and boy's are the husband's domain. A girl would never ever go to her father about sexuality.

Also it is obvious that some of the details have been changed in amother's telling of this story. I don't for a second believe that a 12 year old girl living outside of kiryat yoel (and obviously this couple does not live there if the downstairs neighbors "make out" during daylight hours without blinds down) has ever NOT seen a couple kissing in order to be repulsed by it. She must have seen or done something else and the amother is trying to protect her chareidi daughter's on-line reputation.

[onionsoupmix]

they could have just left the blinds open. By accident or not.

[onionsoupmix]

FS is not chareidi, she is DL as far as I know, but she is much more in tune with Israeli Chareidi culture. I don't know that her advice was something I agreed with, (it was basically tell your daughter the truth and keep your husband out of it) but she seemed very culturally competent.

probably BTs

[anonymous]

The parents must be BTs who are often (not 'always', only 'often') clueless about reconciling religion and sexuality. No religious role models in healthy sexual relationships... Me and my wife don't exactly make out in front of the kids, but they do see that our relationship isn't platonic.

I just can't imagine my 12yo beeing grossed by seeing a couple kissing.

- cfkaMP

Re: probably BTs

[ymarkov]

AFAIK many pre-adolescents are, indeed, grossed out by such sights. Some remain at the "it's fun to do but not fun to watch" stage for all their life, especially women. IMHO that's normal.

Re: probably BTs

[anonymous]

kissing?
- cfkaMP