The Value of a Woman

[onionsoupmix]

Here's a topic I am completely ignorant about : Valuations. Arachin.

There is apparently a whole section of halacha that deals with donation vows made based on a person's worth. I guess it would be like this:  "In honor of our anniversary, I hereby promise to donate my wife's value to the Temple." Or something like that.  One type of valuation vow

Comments

See Rashi on this passage for more problems

[anonymous]

It would appear that according to Rashi - the issue of inherent value does have something to do with the abilities of the type of individual - as he discusses that as men and women get older - their value gets closer (an old Savta is in asset in the home, whereas an old geyser is a stumbling block - pasuk 7) - though men are STILL worth more!
I've learned this piece many times in the Chumash and I can't honestly say that it ever really fully made sense to me.

Re: See Rashi on this passage for more problems

[onionsoupmix]

yeah, I saw that rashi, it wasn't particularly enlightening. Basically, as males age, they lose more value than women do. Again, not sure what this is about, because it is not the abilities of the person, that much is clear from the rambam and mishnayos. If a person was disabled, blind, etc, they were still valued equally based on age and gender under this calculation.

Logical leap

[glowing_flower]

This is saying if a man makes a vow, he pays a certain amount. I don't think that you can assume that what the man pays is the value _God_ places on the person, since that isn't stated in the pshat. In the matter of the support of the Mishkan for example, each person gave a set amount, regardless of gender and regardless of the fact that men had the hands-on parts of the doings in the Mishkan.

Re: Logical leap

[onionsoupmix]

On what is the difference in valuation based if not on God's value of that gender/age category?

Re: Logical leap

[glowing_flower]

I'll answer you with a question: what does God need with money?

Re: Logical leap

[onionsoupmix]

I guess it's a form of charity- giving a donation based on some external measure. But help me out... where are you going with this?

Are you saying that the different values in the chumash only reflect the social norms of the times and not divine intent? If so, what stops you from applying that logic to the rest of the 5 books?

[hamaskil]

Men and women are equal in God's eyes, but men are more equal than woman.

I am also reminded of the maaseh shehoya:

Moishi was asked after he died, whether he would like to go to hell or to heaven.
- Please, let me see both, - he asked.
He was shown both. In the heaven, righteous were sitting and angels were reading Gemarah aloud. In the hell it was quite different: women, drinks, singing, etc.
- I'd like the hell, - said Moishi.
He was immediately caught and thrown into the boiling kettle. He started crying:
- You've shown me something different ?
- It was our keruv station !

[onionsoupmix]

check out this article http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=13127&alias=buffalo-mesivta-fights-drinking

and read the comments esp the ones from the shluchim who explain that there's no other way to get people to a farbrengen except with drinks :)

[hamaskil]

Not only drink; there are other way to farbrengen all the way...

[bringing_peace]

w/out reading the article - this is insulting.

Why, then do so many kiruv people insist that women and men are equal in God's eyes?

[anonymous]

very simple, they are lying, they don't mean it.
they even don't want it.

Re: Why, then do so many kiruv people insist that women and men are equal in God's eyes?

[anonymous]

There are some (maybe even many, maybe a majority) frum families that do practice separate-but-equal successfully, but that's because of being exposed to cultural expecations of America, or based on their own personalities. It doesn't come from the Torah.

Also, even for those familes, equality ends as soon as they leave their front door. On the communal level women's influence and value is zero.

[beaniekins]

I don't have an answer to your post. I just wanted to say that I was in Crown Heights for Shabbos and I thought of you a lot as I cringed my way through several discussions around the table.

[onionsoupmix]

I gather it hasn't changed much then?

[beaniekins]

When I got home I updated my facebook status to say, "Oh, Crown Heights, I think you are the very definition of, "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose." (The more things change, the more they stay the same.)

It's so weird because the friends I have there are so nice and normal. But then, they have people at their Shabbos tables who, when I meet them, also seem nice and normal and things are going so well and I'm sitting there thinking, "What a great community! People really care about each other and are compassionate and generous and intellectually curious..." And I have barely finished the thought when someone says something about the "myth of global warming" or "Arabs killing Arabs is fine by me" or the one about how shidduchim, "aren't based on looks, like they are in the goyishe veldt."

looks aren't part of shidduchim?

[glowing_flower]

Okay, you must be an amazingly calm person because I would have been laughing so hard at that kugel would have come out my nose...