Comments | orionrioniononn: What Is the Lesson Here?

orionrioniononn

What Is the Lesson Here?

Nov 23, 2005 19:45

Edit:

In America, I need to know:
Where is the place for people like me,
who feel it is important for a civilized society to make abortion safe and available for those who need it
and who also believe that the ending of a pregnancy,
however it happens,
also releases a tiny spirit into the air?

~ Marie Myung-Ok Lee, the author of Somebody's Daughter: A ( Read more... )

Comments 17

leolz November 11 2005, 05:24:34 UTC

I think that any opinion or feeling a man has on abortion is completely moot due to it's objective nature for men. Still, I agree that certain justifications can be made for abortion, but legally it would be impossible to regulate (people would just lie). Though I'm not a "what if" type of person in my own life, in regards to abortion, I am of the camp that thinks, "What kind of lives could those babies have lived, and what contributions to society could they have made ( ... )

orionrioniononn November 11 2005, 10:56:23 UTC

Hahah, let me just state for the record that I saw Kirsten's comment (my friend who made the other lengthy comment to this entry) in my inbox first, which is why my response to her sounds like I'm totally ignoring yours, but I'm not! I promise! I would like to direct you to my response to her comment, though, on the point of men pontificating on and making decisions about abortion. However, as this is a whole other tangent, let's try to keep it that way before I get lost in all this commenting, hahah ( ... )

leolz November 11 2005, 05:50:55 UTC

Also, what if a woman get's pregnant and her family has a history of Down's? This early test may prevent her from aborting.

penguinista November 11 2005, 06:33:01 UTC

I read an article about this today as well, and while I have some issues with your opinions on abortion, I at least appreciate that you are legally liberal toward the subject, since I don't take kindly to boys legislating on subjects they'll never have to deal with (I wouldn't take kindly to women legislating on prostates, either). But to offer another perspective: I was talking to a friend the other day who had a brother with Down's, and her mother had both of her subsequent children tested during pregnancy. Not with the intention of aborting, but so that she would be emotionally prepared for whatever the outcome was going to be ( ... )

orionrioniononn November 11 2005, 10:30:08 UTC

I definitely agree with early warnings (as well as the inverse, "relief from anxiety"), which is why I had said that these were "laudable ends," but my fear is that this is not the initial intent of these tests. What really gets my knickers in a twist with this issue is the idea you raise in your statement, "From a cold, genetics-driven point of view, such an abortion is almost a return to the status-quo, to an evolutionary time when people with genetic disorders had severely shortened lifespans and therefore could not pass those disorders on," that matches the idea I am questioning in mine, in my last paragraph, "How can we teach the acceptance of life for itself in all its imperfections if we keep trying to prevent it?" I feel like this need for "normalcy," for "healthy babies," is so contradictory to the fact of life: variations exist, sometimes they suck, sometimes they don't. Why can't we just accept that people are different and live with their differences, even if these differences make lives harder? Perhaps the only ( ... )

penguinista November 11 2005, 18:12:16 UTC

Quick clarification on the "allowed to have an opinion" bit: I support everyone's right to have an opinion on all issues, whether they are affected or not. It's legislating on issues for which they have no basis for comparison that makes me nervous. Regardless, I would say legislating *against* rights makes me nervous in any case, which is why the gay rights thing is an awkward comparison: I have a problem with anyone (no matter what their experience base) casually legislating to take away rights. But I don't think that my feelings about men and abortion are as black and white as you state: I think everyone should be able to express their opinions, I think legislation needs to be carefully considered, especially by people for whom it is an academic or emotional, rather than personal, subject; and I make the same arguments regardless of whether someone is male or female and agrees or disagrees with me ( ... )

throwing a few arguments out there anonymous November 11 2005, 17:42:59 UTC

1) The argument that men can not pass legislation or moral judgement on abortion because it is something that only women experience is flawed. Legislators represent the will of the people, including that of women. Perhaps before women's sufferage, the government shouldn't have the right to pass legislation on abortions, but that argument can not be made anymore. Moreover, I would argue that abortion does not just affect women, but it has moral repurcussions on our society as a whole. The right to end a baby's life is a matter, which affects everyone. As such, it is not fair to say that "men cannot on subjects they'll never have to deal with (I wouldn't take kindly to women legislating on prostates, either)." If men's prostates started to take the lives of children, then every member of our society ought to have the right to decide whether this is right or wrong, or at the very least express some sort of moral opinion on the matter ( ... )

Re: throwing a few arguments out there orionrioniononn December 13 2005, 03:43:54 UTC

1) I think that a flaw in your argument, though, is that you automatically jump to the assumption that this is the death of a baby. I will say that I, too, feel that this is a life that is taken, no matter how primitively formed, but this is not a given that everyone accepts.

I think the better argument is that no sex chooses to be the sex it is, so why is the opinion of a man held against him simply because he does not have a uterus? Is he penalized for his penis? Did he choose to be a man? If I could, I would choose to have a uterus so that I could bear a child. I feel like oftentimes, many women who make this argument are just too quick to fall back on double standards of when men are allowed to and when men are not allowed to contribute to a decision, but shouldn't the person making a decision consider the viewpoints of all those that are important to her, even if that includes listening to a man ( ... )

Re: throwing a few arguments out there anonymous January 6 2006, 21:57:27 UTC

1) I don't think my argument is based on the assumption that all people accept that abortion is the taking of the life of a baby. Even if we dont' automatically assume that abortion is taking the life of a baby, our society as a whole has a right to determine the morality of abortions - that is, in essence whether or not the fetus is considered alive and whether or not we have the right to destroy/kill/remove it. The point being that moral decisions of this magnitude affect our entire society, men and women alike, and thus should not be legislated by only roughly half the population.

Re: throwing a few arguments out there orionrioniononn January 6 2006, 22:14:13 UTC

But that's the thing: I think that when someone makes this sort of decision, it's based less on morals and more on things like circumstances, finances, value of a life already living versus one not yet established. I am not saying that someone who gets an abortion is amoral or immoral, but that they are not considering this to be a decision of a moral nature ( ... )

Thread 8

queebidala November 11 2005, 18:02:05 UTC

Kenny,

Is the stuff in bold supposed to be what you would beat the audience over the head with if you were to make a movie version of your post?

What about Kansas!?!?!