/a song of ice & fire/? so very gay! also feminist!

[paranoid_monkey]

(don't bother with this entry unless you're familiar with george r.r. martin.)

ok, so i'm re-reading martin's a song of ice and fire, which, despite its faults (notably the incredibly boring iron island plot and the only slightly less boring stannis plot), i love with a passion. specifically, i'm at a clash of kings. aCoK is, as many of you will

Comments

[ladybird97]

I always kind of went back and forth on whether the rainbow thing was intentional. I'd like to think that it was :) It took me far too long to see how upset Loras was over Renly's death, because we saw that scene through Sansa's eyes, and she just had no clue.

And I am so with you on the depictions of women. One of my favorite scenes was the one between Cersei and Sansa, because a) it so clearly articulated the position of women in their society, and b) it made me totally understand why Cersei was the way she was. And thank you for sharing in the Catelyn love! She's one of my favorites :)

I also love the way he depicts children. His kids aren't little adults or idiots; they're realistically immature and, well, childish. And when Bad Things happen to them, they get kind of messed up (see Arya and Rickon).

[paranoid_monkey]

i really hadn't even thought of the rainbow thing as being related to my idea about loras, until just now, when i happened to notice the particular color combo. there were seven guards including loras, so he could have used the entire roy g biv scheme by labeling loras as a color - but he didn't. so it suddenly occured to me that it could very well be a subtle little joke

[paranoid_monkey]

second addendom: i'd forgotten xharo xoan daos, or however it's spelled, was gay too. hee. they are everywhere.

[paranoid_monkey]

oh my god, addendUm. i can't spell recently.

[den_down_unda]

Before I read the post, I was surprised that you'd be excited by Martin's attitude toward homosexuality and feminism. This is obviously because I wasn't thinking.

Superficially, it's not all that positive. After all, Jaime, at least, is downright abusive to Loras because of the rumors, among other reasons. But, as you pointed out, the subtlety with which Martin handled their relationship suggests that Martin is differentiating from what the characters in his male-dominated world think, and what he thinks.

It's a similar thing with sexism. Of course, the world is sexist-Cersei is absolutely right when she complains to Jamie how unfair it is that she can't inherit. It's probably that fact that turns her into what she is. (Well, that and being bartered off to a man she hates.) The scene with Hoster at the beginning of A Storm of Swords is also heartbreaking (and handled with far more delicacy than, say, Jordan would have. I kinda wonder if the obviously screwed up gender attitudes in The Wheel of Time are a deliberate

[paranoid_monkey]

huh, i found your response really interesting, because it never occurred to me at all to be offended by the way martin treats of either women or queers. i think i felt from the very beginning that he was setting up a world which was deeply realistic (in terms of an altered western history, anyway) in its misogyny and homophobia, and then was showing how various people have to cope with those things. of course, my life is nowhere near what it would be like if i were a woman - much less a queer woman - at, well, basically any point earlier in western history, but martin's way of treating women especially with understanding and compassion allows me to feel like he gets it, you know? again, i don't have to deal with anything like say cat or cersei would, but i can identify at least to some extent with the frustrations of being born in a world in which you don't have the range of options someone else would

[den_down_unda]

Hie thee out and find a copy of Cordelia's Honor. Most people say that it's just as easy (or easier) to start the Miles books with The Warrior's Apprentice, but if you're looking for strong women who kick ass and take names, Cordelia Naismith is the place to start with Bujold.

If you can't find it, I'll find it and send it to you. I only ever made it through the first Paksenarrion book, and Tamora Pierce is YA. But you might like her. She founded a site called Sheroes.com, and wrote her books because she wanted to read about women kicking ass and taking names and there weren't enough books out there like that.

More later.

[paranoid_monkey]

i just re-read this - a scene with hoster? i've totally forgotten about that. i'll be reading that soon though - i'll watch out for it