Archetypal Keys in Wiccan Mythological History

[persipone]

I've been bored lately, and when I'm bored, I read. Mostly, I've been reading RJ Stewart's The Underworld Initiation. I have a lot of problems with the book, but it's definitely thought-provoking. It inspired some thoughts, that I thought I'd share with everybody :-)

Comments

[old_swordsman]

I respect your thoughts, and I applaud thedepth of thought that is reflected in them. I cannot say I agree with it all, however.

Wallowing in victimhood is not a way to exist, but seeking power to alleviate it is not necessarily a road to becoming an oppressor. Whatever some pundits may believe, deterrence works, and those who choose to test the boundaries do so at their own risk.

[persipone]

I agree that there is a happy middle ground between wallowing in victimhood and becoming the oppressor. But I firmly believe that the key to finding this middle ground is *not* to seek the external political power to alleviate the oppression. The key is seeking the internal strength to better oneself, and whatever political tools are required for this. The key is *not* to become more powerful than your oppressors, but to become *better* than them. Better educated, kinder, more loyal, and more willing to make peace. Acting within the dynamic of oppression to accumulate more power only allows the power to oppress

[old_swordsman]

Last I checked, we won the cold war. ;)

[persipone]

I'm no expert but, in my understanding, the USSR *lost* the cold war. They pretty much did it to themselves while we pointed and laughed

[madfedor]

I'm not sure where to begin, but since you are encouraging thoughtful posts, I'll just start with a phrase I use often. In no particular order

[persipone]

Ooh nice response. I'll reply to the political part here

[madfedor]

I don't mean to minimize the danger we were all in during the Cold War. There was way too much room for mistakes. But, it's like the current situation and the borderline (and also valid) paranoia over the possibility of a nuke showing up in an American city: it has been possible for this to happen for many years now, and one has to ask why it hasn't happened yet, especially in the wake of 9/11. If they could go through many months, with all the planning and resources needed for the preparation, why the heck didn't they nuke 10 or 12 cities instead? The answer lies underneath the growing myth around 9/11: because they were deterred.

The USSR was a very complex situation, so I'll stipulate all your points and just mention one thing: it is not stereotyping to describe the Russians as a culture as paranoid. It is a factual, reasonable description. Much can follow from that, including a brinksman strategy of goading them to hasten their downfall.

[persipone]

I don't dispute your characterization of Russian culture as paranoid- I don't know enough about the culture to judge, but the government certainly *was*. Again, though, their fall was in their flaws, not in our success

Conclusion to previous post

[madfedor]

So, what are those two myths' relationship to this culture, right here? Our culture is not much different from that in which Gardner started it all, the continuity is very strong

Re: Conclusion to previous post

[persipone]

Heh. I like your cynicism. So you don't think there's anything spiritually valid or intriguing in these fictional histories? You see them entirely as means of control? Or do you think that understanding the mechanisms of control is an important spiritual task

Re: Conclusion to previous post

[madfedor]

Hah! And I like your perception and your desire to dig

Re: Conclusion to previous post

[persipone]

Never let it be said that there are no shameless navel contemplators in Wicca! I will excavate lint to my dying breath to counteract the stereotype ;-)

Otherwise, very well said. I do think Gardner may have very well fallen victim to a magical "publish or perish" mentality (I am reminded of the warring publications in Jonathon Strange and Mr Norrell). And I do think that a lot of Wicca's popularity is thanks to Gardner's willingness to get even an imperfect product out there. And, hey, it works, which is really the best measure of any religious system's success.

[discoiris]

well, i am going to give this a shot, it's late so you'll have to put up with possible ramblings...

here is my take on some of this:

way back in the day, people "created myths" to explain things that they could find no other explanation for. as science grows, we find explanation for more and more things that were unexplainable and so many people are losing focus on religion. archetypes are created by the universal conciousness...people putting energy into thought. myths create/strengthen those archetypes as well, putting focus on them. any religion has the ability to lead their followers to "enlightenment". the path is an inner one though. no history, myth or unbroken tradition will lead you to enlightenment. it is what you do with the information you are given that gets you there. it's your choices, your beliefs, your stories...myth should trigger the inner journey, tradition should help you with the journey, history will be yours to tell when you find the end.

[persipone]

I like that take :-)

One of my fears is that Western civilization has largely stopped making myths, in the same way that biologists theorize we may have stopped evolving through natural selection (we're changing out environment to match ourselves faster than nature can change us to match the environment). We're so self-conscious of our own interepretations of history, and it seems like the only people who really believe anything anymore are insane. We second guess ourselves to the point that I wonder whether effective mythmaking can occur. I think loosing our capacity for myth would be a bad thing, because I agree with you that myths are important vehicles for understanding and enlightenment. But myths are intuitive, and I think exposing them to too much intellectual scrutiny may destroy their power.