TYLEEEEEEEEEEER! I mostly figured he and Matt would both be okay, because getting killed off for real is for GIRLS on this show, but wasn’t entirely sure.
I was WAY PANICKED about Tyler. All I could think of was the preview I saw where Julie Plec said Tyler and Caroline's relationship would be changed forever. I was like 'ended forever=changed forever oh noooooooooo'.
But I knew Matt would be okay because I don't like him and they never kill off the characters I don't like. /grudge
I love seeing this idea that YOU CAN BEAT THIS!!!!! whatever with STRONG ENOUGH FEELINGS!!! subverted so harshly.
YES! That is such an annoying...what word am I looking for? Trope? Cliche? Whatever. It's annoying. It completely undercuts everything that's ever been done under compulsion, because 'if they'd just been STRONG enough' it wouldn't have happened. So suddenly it becomes the compulsee's fault for not having the strength to resist. Aggravating in the extreme.
Katherine and Jeremy are the best road trip buddies ever. It’s so ludicrous, it just
( ... )
ahaha, yeah, Matt was such a tool for so long (I thought he was SO AWFUL to poor Care!) that killing him off would be too much of a *shrug* to bother.
because 'if they'd just been STRONG enough' it wouldn't have happened. So suddenly it becomes the compulsee's fault for not having the strength to resist. Aggravating in the extreme.
ugh, yes, I groaned out loud when she started going on about that. So when it DID NOT WORK I was relieved.
More seriously, interesting thoughts on Stefan's compulsion though! I didn't really connect Katherine compelling him and Klaus compelling him - I wonder if part of Stefan's control issues stem from that. It's never really been explained why he's a ripper...
The Salvatores last season, in a lot of ways, were all about Damon's inability to trust anyone but himself; now we're seeing the side where Stefan trusts everyone else more than he trusts himself. I mean, I do think he takes responsibility for his own actions, but he manipulates himself into these situations where someone else will be responsible for making the choices so he doesn't have to. I suppose living in the endless clash between Guiseppe and Damon would teach anyone to keep their head down and go with the flow; then he's most comfortable re-creating his relationship with Katherine because that's what rebuilt him from the ground up.
I wonder if part of Stefan's control issues stem from that
Ooooh, yes. I think this could all go to some really interesting places.
I don’t think it’s just that being a vampire is HER THING!!! though that’s probably part of it. The power dynamics in their relationship have just shifted considerably.
Yeah, I actually assumed that she was more worried--worried for his self control (since she knows the cravings and whatnot) and worried about other unforeseeable ramifications (like him having to be a minion to Klaus). The very rules of his existence changed and he's acting like nothing's wrong. I think she's freaked out by his blase attitude more than anything else.
The fact that Katherine could compel him was part of the attraction back in the day, and he enjoys Klaus’ hold over him as much as he enjoys doing what he’s been told. (VON! VON AGGRESSIVE MALE SUB! MUA AH AH AH AH!) Which doesn’t make Klaus and Katherine any less abusive, because they were both taking advantage of an insurmountable power differential, but I do think we’re seeing a pattern that appeals to Stefan as well.
I think she's freaked out by his blase attitude more than anything else.
that's a good point. I think I might have been seeing it more from Ty's perspective? She thinks of becoming a vampire as being what she went through, alone, not knowing what was going on, and becoming a monster - Tyler already went through all that. This time he passed out for a couple of minutes and woke up as even more of a badass, and is riding that OH SHIT I'M NOT DEAD adrenaline surge. I wouldn't really expect him to get too tied up into knots about it here.
Worrrrrrd on Matt. And Bonnie. They were great here.
I mostly figured he and Matt would both be okay, because getting killed off for real is for GIRLS on this show
Ugh, seriously. Not that I hate Matt and Tyler, but… Yep.
You just have to want it bad enough. Except, no. I love seeing this idea that YOU CAN BEAT THIS!!!!! whatever with STRONG ENOUGH FEELINGS!!! subverted so harshly. Because the vast majority of the time, it’s concern-trolling and victim-blaming.
YESSSSSS. The thing is, I think Elena really believes that Stefan won't really hurt her. She thinks she's still living in some kind of fairytale, still.
Stefan’s claim that it’s who/what he is, no use fighting it, is equally disingenuous, of course; it’s a hard series of choices and everyone fucks up, but there are influences which stack the deck too far and it’s a fight nobody should have to fight.Yep. I really would LIKE to believe that Stefan gave in at the end because he's WEAK, but IDK if the writers
( ... )
DAMON THE GROWN-UP, A TRULY TERRIFYING PROPOSITION, but he is. He likes to live down to the teen standards, but really, he was a young adult when Katherine got to him, even, and is a peer with Liz and Ric. I don't think he's an eternal teenager the way Caroline and now Tyler are, so much as he is, you know, out of his fucking mind.
I really would LIKE to believe that Stefan gave in at the end because he's WEAK...It's apparent even with Elena; he cedes control to her, and that's how he STAYS in control.I think Stefan sees himself as weak and so he really wants to give himself over whenever an opportunity presents itself. And he doesn't need to, really, he can cope on his own. But he's so all or nothing, frantically trying to keep it all together or just dissolving into someone else's will entirely. But yeah, I think that would be a huge problem for me if compulsion could be resisted though the Power of Heart (TM) or whatever. I think this is an extension of Stefan's issues as they've manifested thus far
( ... )
I don't think he's an eternal teenager the way Caroline and now Tyler are, so much as he is, you know, out of his fucking mind.
HAHAHAHAHA TRUE TRUTH IS TRUE
But yeah, I think that would be a huge problem for me if compulsion could be resisted though the Power of Heart (TM) or whatever. I think this is an extension of Stefan's issues as they've manifested thus far.
YOU ARE KEEPING ME OPTIMISTIC. Yeah... My ISH at this point isn't so much that it's not ~thematically resonant or true to character; it's that I can so clearly see the writers' hands here. Like, the likely outside-story reasons plus the show's history of taking outs with Stefan is affecting my enjoyment. BUT YOUR READING IS MAKING IT BETTER.
I was not prepared for how brutally Damon treated Caroline, though, that shit got real right away.
Because I do think Stefan wants to give in a little bit, to let someone else be responsible for him because his balancing act is so fucking difficult for him, even if I don’t think that means he could have resisted through TWOO WUV. The fact that Katherine could compel him was part of the attraction back in the day, and he enjoys Klaus’ hold over him as much as he enjoys doing what he’s been told. (VON! VON AGGRESSIVE MALE SUB! MUA AH AH AH AH!) Which doesn’t make Klaus and Katherine any less abusive, because they were both taking advantage of an insurmountable power differential, but I do think we’re seeing a pattern that appeals to Stefan as well.
EXCELLENT OBSERVATION. Stefan subverting himself to the will of others is a thread I think I'd seen but not seen explicitly acknowledged or outlined that way you have here so succinctly. Like Alex said above, he keeps control over everything by allowing others to control him; letting their judgment supersede his own. It's a way of dampening responsibility and coping with his real
( ... )
Poor Stef. He needs some control besides himself. And most people do! Not even something SO direct and all-encompassing as these awful relationships. He would've been perfectly fine if he'd gotten to keep that human life, as a churchgoer and member of the Council. There'd be power, and the opportunity to do things well, without having to really choose his own course.
Really, I'm not sure I'd say say he's weak as a defining characteristic. It's a facet of his humanity cranked up to eleven, that fundamental insecurity. But when there's nothing else to lean on, this manifests. Damon turns to nihilism, but he can maintain an identity against that backdrop of nothing. Stefan cannot, and so he is having his identity crisis now.
Comments 14
I was WAY PANICKED about Tyler. All I could think of was the preview I saw where Julie Plec said Tyler and Caroline's relationship would be changed forever. I was like 'ended forever=changed forever oh noooooooooo'.
But I knew Matt would be okay because I don't like him and they never kill off the characters I don't like. /grudge
I love seeing this idea that YOU CAN BEAT THIS!!!!! whatever with STRONG ENOUGH FEELINGS!!! subverted so harshly.
YES! That is such an annoying...what word am I looking for? Trope? Cliche? Whatever. It's annoying. It completely undercuts everything that's ever been done under compulsion, because 'if they'd just been STRONG enough' it wouldn't have happened. So suddenly it becomes the compulsee's fault for not having the strength to resist. Aggravating in the extreme.
Katherine and Jeremy are the best road trip buddies ever. It’s so ludicrous, it just ( ... )
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because 'if they'd just been STRONG enough' it wouldn't have happened. So suddenly it becomes the compulsee's fault for not having the strength to resist. Aggravating in the extreme.
ugh, yes, I groaned out loud when she started going on about that. So when it DID NOT WORK I was relieved.
and thank you! nice to have you around.
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More seriously, interesting thoughts on Stefan's compulsion though! I didn't really connect Katherine compelling him and Klaus compelling him - I wonder if part of Stefan's control issues stem from that. It's never really been explained why he's a ripper...
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I wonder if part of Stefan's control issues stem from that
Ooooh, yes. I think this could all go to some really interesting places.
Reply
Yeah, I actually assumed that she was more worried--worried for his self control (since she knows the cravings and whatnot) and worried about other unforeseeable ramifications (like him having to be a minion to Klaus). The very rules of his existence changed and he's acting like nothing's wrong. I think she's freaked out by his blase attitude more than anything else.
The fact that Katherine could compel him was part of the attraction back in the day, and he enjoys Klaus’ hold over him as much as he enjoys doing what he’s been told. (VON! VON AGGRESSIVE MALE SUB! MUA AH AH AH AH!) Which doesn’t make Klaus and Katherine any less abusive, because they were both taking advantage of an insurmountable power differential, but I do think we’re seeing a pattern that appeals to Stefan as well.
I heartily agree.
I love all your thoughts.
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I think she's freaked out by his blase attitude more than anything else.
that's a good point. I think I might have been seeing it more from Ty's perspective? She thinks of becoming a vampire as being what she went through, alone, not knowing what was going on, and becoming a monster - Tyler already went through all that. This time he passed out for a couple of minutes and woke up as even more of a badass, and is riding that OH SHIT I'M NOT DEAD adrenaline surge. I wouldn't really expect him to get too tied up into knots about it here.
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I agree. He's acting unfazed but she knows that shit just got real, and there probably aren't rainbows and kittens in their future. :(
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AHAHAHAHA WHAT
Worrrrrrd on Matt. And Bonnie. They were great here.
I mostly figured he and Matt would both be okay, because getting killed off for real is for GIRLS on this show
Ugh, seriously. Not that I hate Matt and Tyler, but… Yep.
You just have to want it bad enough. Except, no. I love seeing this idea that YOU CAN BEAT THIS!!!!! whatever with STRONG ENOUGH FEELINGS!!! subverted so harshly. Because the vast majority of the time, it’s concern-trolling and victim-blaming.
YESSSSSS. The thing is, I think Elena really believes that Stefan won't really hurt her. She thinks she's still living in some kind of fairytale, still.
Stefan’s claim that it’s who/what he is, no use fighting it, is equally disingenuous, of course; it’s a hard series of choices and everyone fucks up, but there are influences which stack the deck too far and it’s a fight nobody should have to fight.Yep. I really would LIKE to believe that Stefan gave in at the end because he's WEAK, but IDK if the writers ( ... )
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I really would LIKE to believe that Stefan gave in at the end because he's WEAK...It's apparent even with Elena; he cedes control to her, and that's how he STAYS in control.I think Stefan sees himself as weak and so he really wants to give himself over whenever an opportunity presents itself. And he doesn't need to, really, he can cope on his own. But he's so all or nothing, frantically trying to keep it all together or just dissolving into someone else's will entirely. But yeah, I think that would be a huge problem for me if compulsion could be resisted though the Power of Heart (TM) or whatever. I think this is an extension of Stefan's issues as they've manifested thus far ( ... )
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*sporfle* Well-put.
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HAHAHAHAHA TRUE TRUTH IS TRUE
But yeah, I think that would be a huge problem for me if compulsion could be resisted though the Power of Heart (TM) or whatever. I think this is an extension of Stefan's issues as they've manifested thus far.
YOU ARE KEEPING ME OPTIMISTIC. Yeah... My ISH at this point isn't so much that it's not ~thematically resonant or true to character; it's that I can so clearly see the writers' hands here. Like, the likely outside-story reasons plus the show's history of taking outs with Stefan is affecting my enjoyment. BUT YOUR READING IS MAKING IT BETTER.
I was not prepared for how brutally Damon treated Caroline, though, that shit got real right away.
Yeah, absolutely. There's true horror there.
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EXCELLENT OBSERVATION. Stefan subverting himself to the will of others is a thread I think I'd seen but not seen explicitly acknowledged or outlined that way you have here so succinctly. Like Alex said above, he keeps control over everything by allowing others to control him; letting their judgment supersede his own. It's a way of dampening responsibility and coping with his real ( ... )
Reply
Really, I'm not sure I'd say say he's weak as a defining characteristic. It's a facet of his humanity cranked up to eleven, that fundamental insecurity. But when there's nothing else to lean on, this manifests. Damon turns to nihilism, but he can maintain an identity against that backdrop of nothing. Stefan cannot, and so he is having his identity crisis now.
LOOK AT ME, DEFENDER OF STEFAN!
his name is spelled Mikael
yahtzee!
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