girls love bad boys! but not for the reasons you think.
I was going to deny my rationalization-filled, navel-gazey, nosebleed-level theorizing on this? But then ever_neutral wrote this and kelpyfinners wrote this and I AM NOT MADE OF STONE, PEOPLE. Right now this is no longer locked because...I felt like it? Passing familiarity with TVD and Buffy will probably help, but I don't think there are a whole lot of specific spoilers in the post itself. Caveat lector on the comments, though.
So, my points of reference for this are going to mostly be Damon and Spike, who are not particularly similar in personality, but their chosen personas have a fair amount of overlap (mouthy, leather-wearing vampire), and they do seem to elicit a similar set of reactions. And, obviously I love them both a lot.
It seems like (a) a lot of women love these characters, and (b) a lot of other folks have a huge issue with (a).
Now, I really am writing this from a second-hand perspective. I wasn’t around for the Spike Wars, so I’m going on historical reports of all that vitriol. ( Well, mostly.) And I’m technically around for the crazy as TVD is running, but. LOOK AT ALL THE FUCKS I GIVE: . I don’t mind people hating Damon, God knows he gives plenty of reason, but he’s so thoroughly my touchstone for the show, and usually handled by the narrative in a way that satisfies me his issues are acknowledged, that attempting to engage a Damon-negative room would mostly end with me very quickly going “um, I don’t sprechen much Deutch? So, later.”
So I’m admittedly only seeing half this story when I say it feels like an awful lot of Damon fans feel defensive about their love for the character. Not about what he does - at least my little corner of fandom is explicitly social-justice minded, and therefore we’re roundly appalled by a lot of his behavior. I am, in point of fact, exactly as appalled with Damon as I am with, oh, Katherine, Stefan, Klaus, Elijah, and so forth - characters people do not seem to feel particularly defensive about liking. I’ve never seen anyone say they even vaguely felt attacked over their love of Katherine, who also raped a main character on-screen. But Damon is the lightning rod. Same with Spike - yes, his actions are horrible, and yes, they are a big flaw in what was generally one of the most gender-progressive shows of the last twenty years. But nobody feels particularly bad about liking Faith, even over, oh, the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR.
There’s a condescension in that, too, that bad girls are naughty children to be indulged, rather than powerful creatures with agency; there’s a frankly frightening willingness to dismiss male victims of sexual violence. (That’s not the same as a hypothetical WATM, by the way. It’s one thing to recognize broadly that VAW is more common on a population level and be more vigilant about rape culture narratives that work in that direction. It’s another issue entirely to decide some specific instances of sexual violence don’t count for shit because the victim doesn’t look victimy enough by whatever standard.) But bad boys are nasty adolescents, big enough to do damage but not old enough to have minds of their own, and women are supposed to be the scoldy gatekeepers, and never FALL FOR the act.
I think there’s a particular appeal of these kinds of characters, for women, outside of their attractiveness. And that is that they have a lot of traits which are coded feminine. They devote themselves to more powerful partners to whom they’re less important. They clearly think a lot about their appearance; they are actively saying something with their demeanor. Their webs of relationships are crucial to them. They play to the gaze, constantly.
Basically, they perform femininity, with one crucial difference. Not so much that they’re male-identified, but that they choose and enjoy their self-presentation. Some of us love the shit out of the opportunity to project into them and experiencing all these things that are burdensome expectations for us in the context of backtalking badassery. Their obnoxious personas underline the way this experience is a choice for them, and allows us the fantasy that it might be for us, as well. A character like Spike or Damon is very much a feminine trickster id.
So what does it mean, for us to see this heavily gendered part of our own lives in these characters meant to tempt and frighten us? Well, they’re taking femininity and turning it into an active thing, rather than the passivity it’s supposed to be in women.
Now, here’s what I’m not saying: that this means these characters are somehow feminist, or that all feminists should like them. I am not saying they are a valid patriarchy-friendly substitute for simply having more female characters and treating them better. I am not saying it is invalid to like the character simply because he is hot, as that is sex-shamey and gross. I am not saying that their feminine self-presentation takes away from their culpability for GBV. It sucks that this particular self-presentation which seems to be a powerful part of women’s experiences only makes it onto the screen through a male character, but, you know, that’s not our fault. I’m just saying, I think we can take each other at our word when we talk about how these characters mean a lot to us, and look at why that might be.
I think it shows that female femininity outside the context of Getting A Man is so underrepresented, for us to be looking for relatable femininity in male characters. I think it shows female viewers are showing that we want a character that does more than play to our gaze. And that female ownership of these characters freaks people the hell out, and so they dismiss all the implications of this experience by ridiculing female sexual attraction.
So I’m uncomfortable on a couple of layers at the dismissal of the fans. I mean, I love Damon and I ain’t even mad, but that’s probably because I avoid the tumblr cesspool. I really don’t like the idea that we all love them because they’re super-hot, and that this renders our opinions presumptively invalid. Girls love bad boys! Specifically, the smooth-talking funny rebel bad boys - ie, “bad” meaning “a consciously non-mainstream self-presentation,” as opposed to, you know, “bad” meaning “EATING PEOPLE.” It violates the femininity paradigm either way - if we want them, then we want bad boys, and tsk tsk we all know what happens to ladies who run with the wrong crowd.
And then if we relate to the bad boys, more than their good girl prey, then what are we saying? We’re relating to the party with agency, to the active party rather than the passive one, to the subject rather than the object. We’re like the girl in the toy store who wants a truck. We’re supposed to experience Elena as wish fulfillment, that Damon wants her. But if we feel like we’re Damon and it’s fun, we’re now experiencing popular culture in a way that’s usually reserved for men. They’re excellent pictures of the way the sets of characteristics we label “masculine” and “feminine” overlap in all of us. For vampires, they’re awfully real, and maybe that’s what’s so very scary.
For a thoughtful look at this whole phenomenon from a character POV, check out penny_lane_42's lovely new Buffy/Spike introspection fic.
So, my points of reference for this are going to mostly be Damon and Spike, who are not particularly similar in personality, but their chosen personas have a fair amount of overlap (mouthy, leather-wearing vampire), and they do seem to elicit a similar set of reactions. And, obviously I love them both a lot.
It seems like (a) a lot of women love these characters, and (b) a lot of other folks have a huge issue with (a).
Now, I really am writing this from a second-hand perspective. I wasn’t around for the Spike Wars, so I’m going on historical reports of all that vitriol. ( Well, mostly.) And I’m technically around for the crazy as TVD is running, but. LOOK AT ALL THE FUCKS I GIVE: . I don’t mind people hating Damon, God knows he gives plenty of reason, but he’s so thoroughly my touchstone for the show, and usually handled by the narrative in a way that satisfies me his issues are acknowledged, that attempting to engage a Damon-negative room would mostly end with me very quickly going “um, I don’t sprechen much Deutch? So, later.”
So I’m admittedly only seeing half this story when I say it feels like an awful lot of Damon fans feel defensive about their love for the character. Not about what he does - at least my little corner of fandom is explicitly social-justice minded, and therefore we’re roundly appalled by a lot of his behavior. I am, in point of fact, exactly as appalled with Damon as I am with, oh, Katherine, Stefan, Klaus, Elijah, and so forth - characters people do not seem to feel particularly defensive about liking. I’ve never seen anyone say they even vaguely felt attacked over their love of Katherine, who also raped a main character on-screen. But Damon is the lightning rod. Same with Spike - yes, his actions are horrible, and yes, they are a big flaw in what was generally one of the most gender-progressive shows of the last twenty years. But nobody feels particularly bad about liking Faith, even over, oh, the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR.
There’s a condescension in that, too, that bad girls are naughty children to be indulged, rather than powerful creatures with agency; there’s a frankly frightening willingness to dismiss male victims of sexual violence. (That’s not the same as a hypothetical WATM, by the way. It’s one thing to recognize broadly that VAW is more common on a population level and be more vigilant about rape culture narratives that work in that direction. It’s another issue entirely to decide some specific instances of sexual violence don’t count for shit because the victim doesn’t look victimy enough by whatever standard.) But bad boys are nasty adolescents, big enough to do damage but not old enough to have minds of their own, and women are supposed to be the scoldy gatekeepers, and never FALL FOR the act.
I think there’s a particular appeal of these kinds of characters, for women, outside of their attractiveness. And that is that they have a lot of traits which are coded feminine. They devote themselves to more powerful partners to whom they’re less important. They clearly think a lot about their appearance; they are actively saying something with their demeanor. Their webs of relationships are crucial to them. They play to the gaze, constantly.
Basically, they perform femininity, with one crucial difference. Not so much that they’re male-identified, but that they choose and enjoy their self-presentation. Some of us love the shit out of the opportunity to project into them and experiencing all these things that are burdensome expectations for us in the context of backtalking badassery. Their obnoxious personas underline the way this experience is a choice for them, and allows us the fantasy that it might be for us, as well. A character like Spike or Damon is very much a feminine trickster id.
So what does it mean, for us to see this heavily gendered part of our own lives in these characters meant to tempt and frighten us? Well, they’re taking femininity and turning it into an active thing, rather than the passivity it’s supposed to be in women.
Now, here’s what I’m not saying: that this means these characters are somehow feminist, or that all feminists should like them. I am not saying they are a valid patriarchy-friendly substitute for simply having more female characters and treating them better. I am not saying it is invalid to like the character simply because he is hot, as that is sex-shamey and gross. I am not saying that their feminine self-presentation takes away from their culpability for GBV. It sucks that this particular self-presentation which seems to be a powerful part of women’s experiences only makes it onto the screen through a male character, but, you know, that’s not our fault. I’m just saying, I think we can take each other at our word when we talk about how these characters mean a lot to us, and look at why that might be.
I think it shows that female femininity outside the context of Getting A Man is so underrepresented, for us to be looking for relatable femininity in male characters. I think it shows female viewers are showing that we want a character that does more than play to our gaze. And that female ownership of these characters freaks people the hell out, and so they dismiss all the implications of this experience by ridiculing female sexual attraction.
So I’m uncomfortable on a couple of layers at the dismissal of the fans. I mean, I love Damon and I ain’t even mad, but that’s probably because I avoid the tumblr cesspool. I really don’t like the idea that we all love them because they’re super-hot, and that this renders our opinions presumptively invalid. Girls love bad boys! Specifically, the smooth-talking funny rebel bad boys - ie, “bad” meaning “a consciously non-mainstream self-presentation,” as opposed to, you know, “bad” meaning “EATING PEOPLE.” It violates the femininity paradigm either way - if we want them, then we want bad boys, and tsk tsk we all know what happens to ladies who run with the wrong crowd.
And then if we relate to the bad boys, more than their good girl prey, then what are we saying? We’re relating to the party with agency, to the active party rather than the passive one, to the subject rather than the object. We’re like the girl in the toy store who wants a truck. We’re supposed to experience Elena as wish fulfillment, that Damon wants her. But if we feel like we’re Damon and it’s fun, we’re now experiencing popular culture in a way that’s usually reserved for men. They’re excellent pictures of the way the sets of characteristics we label “masculine” and “feminine” overlap in all of us. For vampires, they’re awfully real, and maybe that’s what’s so very scary.
For a thoughtful look at this whole phenomenon from a character POV, check out penny_lane_42's lovely new Buffy/Spike introspection fic.