even if I fucking hated Ianto i know what it feels to be bummed about a character death so internet hugs all around.
There's so much wasted potential-- for happiness. For love. For life. And yeah, the rational part of me is saying: that's the whole point,
i remember getting that feeling when Owen died, yes, (not that I was incredibly devastated - i don't really care much for anyone in this show unless it's Andy or Gwen but i liked Owen a lot), i guess you could see the theme there, and i agree that something must break in the pattern.
Thank you for internet hugs despite your dislike of Ianto. :)
I have tea now, and I'm about to rewatch, so feeling marginally better. Probably will be on an upswing by the time the rest of the internets catch up with this.
It does make a horrible sort of sense, it's a very interesting and valid theme to explore, and the episode was bloody great. But also, another dead queer on TV. That part, I think, I will stay angry about.
tea always makes things better. that's why i moved to UK, hee.
oh well, you know Rusty, he just hates minorities. and fat people. also, i've been hearing this "how dare you kill Ianto, he's gay" argument all over and am i the only one who's always been vaguely irritated when people call Ianto "gay". as far as i'm concerned Lisa counts, too. or bisexuality really doesn't exist in fandom? (one of the reasons i haven't told my family i'm bisexual is that i'm sure they'll say "it doesn't exist"/"it's just a phase"). i'm okay with using the word "queer", which is more inclusive and pertains not just to the choice of sexual partners but the Ianto=gay thing has always rubbed me the wrong way.
sorry about the rant. i guess it's neither here nor there. but hey, i've just distracted you, haven't i?
Heh, you certainly have. And oh, I think you bring up something that CoE especially is/was playing out-- the difficulty of labels, and how, to most people outside Torchwood, the fact that Ianto's shagging Jack makes him gay. But he seems to view it as: he's shagging Jack, period. Bisexuality is still rather invisible, yeah, and the slurs are just slightly different-- I too have gotten the "it's neither here nor there", "it's a phase", "make a choice", "but surely that's just being greedy"-- delivered with a laugh, of course. So yeah, I think esp. given the canon we've gotten about Ianto's struggle with self-identification, calling him gay is a bit much, he doesn't seem to self-identify that way. And yes, Lisa does and should count! (The invisibility/writing out of female characters in slash fandom is an entirely different conversation, but I try to be aware of this in my own stories, and yeah, Lisa suffers from this, big time
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(and remember: he's particularly protective of children, particularly broken over their deaths, we have seen this)
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who particularly notices this.
There are elements of soldier in his death - he doesn't want to die but he doesn't, I think, want Jack to make sacrifices to save him - but it was very. Yes. What you say.
It was an amazing death scene for him, but in the context of tv and tropes and mainstream media...
They specifically nod to this in the episode-- when it's revealed the 456 are incorporatng children into their bodies-- he actually grunts in rage and smacks his hands against the table. Which is an enormous response from a man who's usually rather controlled.
Oh, there certainly are elements of the soldier in his death. It's a playing out of what he said to Jack: you stand up to them, (the implied: at whatever personal cost.) You do the right thing. They both go into Thames House with their moral high ground, and that's why it's so heartbreaking when Jack says, 'no, I take it back, not him' when he realises Ianto's been poisoned. The soldier/lover dichotomy is something that they've hinted at, but never really, properly played out of us on camera, and it's brilliant.
It was a good death. But yeah. Context, context, context. And, you know, very deliberate marketing. I'm rather unimpressed on that front.
Yeah, that was one of the most heartbreaking things for me, the "I take it back". Because in the past Jack will make sacrifices, he will even probably send his people into death, in Meat Ianto was saved only because the gun was empty and Jack just sent him after the men who nearly killed him, but when faced with losing Ianto for real he couldn't. The other thing that really got me was when Gwen went to look at the bodies, Jack still looked warm, like there was blood still in his face, and Ianto was so much paler, and the soft little gasp Jack made when he woke up and remembered what had happened
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All of them really played it fantastically this ep (and the other ones) clearly having one director/Euros Lyn for an entire set of episodes really works. He's got performances out of JB that really surprised me in their subtlety and mutedness. (Of course, it had to go that way, this series is all about, for Jack, who he really is, whether he can remake himself, whether he is all surface or more than that, and so the difference between the pretense, the big, brash persona and this one had to be evident). Gwen's reaction-- pulling up Jack's sheet first and smiling sort-of-fondly before quite visibly steeling herself and hesitantly pulling back Ianto's covering-- just such a great, subtle, heartbreaking moment. And I'm with you on Jack's reaction too--a very deliberate choice to have Jack come back much more softly, mutedly than he has done in the past. And we see the remembrance come back to him-- the pain of memory, the pain of coming back rather than the pain of dying has never been so evident. Some gorgeous camera choices and acting
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i can't imagine what they were thinking--they killed off two main characters FOUR EPISODES AGO--but that ianto was 1. my favorite 2. the queer one on the show (yes, jack counts as queer, but he's not actually a person in the same way) reeeeally upsets me. i'm basically at a point where if there is not the traditional implausibility devices at some point to reanimate him, i'm saying good riddance to any RTD related shenanigans in the future.
(seriously: my favorite AND the queer one? NICE. and they didn't even get to really make out! as you said, that wasted time!)
Gah, I know, I knowI've been thinking about it more witha good night's sleep behind me, and it's still utterly baffling. I think the points that they were making-- death comes to Torchwood early, sacrifices must be made, Jack will outlive everyone around him and that is his curse, it is a curse-- still do not justify killing off Ianto
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to be honest, if it is a goodbye? i do tend to think less of shows that are otherwise "somehow we all managed to survive!" and yet the final episode(s)/movie kills off several main characters.* (see also: serenity.) it always seems like such a petty, obviously-off-screen decision, especially for a show like torchwood where they really play around with the idea of death.
it also seriously does break a promise it feels like they made for the fans. ugh. basically i agree with everything your saying. i don't watch torchwood for plot--i honestly don't think enough of the writers for that--i watch it for character, and they just keep... killing them off!!! what what?
(i do think the bit about pondering which kids to take was scarily plausible.)
* an exception would be a show like space: above and beyond, but that show maintained a certain level of darkness and pain throughout, so it felt like, since they definitely WEREN'T going to get another season or two, it was the only POSSIBLE way to end.
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Yeah. This. This is what I find particularly unforgivable about all of this.
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even if I fucking hated Ianto i know what it feels to be bummed about a character death so internet hugs all around.
There's so much wasted potential-- for happiness. For love. For life. And yeah, the rational part of me is saying: that's the whole point,
i remember getting that feeling when Owen died, yes, (not that I was incredibly devastated - i don't really care much for anyone in this show unless it's Andy or Gwen but i liked Owen a lot), i guess you could see the theme there, and i agree that something must break in the pattern.
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I have tea now, and I'm about to rewatch, so feeling marginally better. Probably will be on an upswing by the time the rest of the internets catch up with this.
It does make a horrible sort of sense, it's a very interesting and valid theme to explore, and the episode was bloody great. But also, another dead queer on TV. That part, I think, I will stay angry about.
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oh well, you know Rusty, he just hates minorities. and fat people. also, i've been hearing this "how dare you kill Ianto, he's gay" argument all over and am i the only one who's always been vaguely irritated when people call Ianto "gay". as far as i'm concerned Lisa counts, too. or bisexuality really doesn't exist in fandom? (one of the reasons i haven't told my family i'm bisexual is that i'm sure they'll say "it doesn't exist"/"it's just a phase"). i'm okay with using the word "queer", which is more inclusive and pertains not just to the choice of sexual partners but the Ianto=gay thing has always rubbed me the wrong way.
sorry about the rant. i guess it's neither here nor there. but hey, i've just distracted you, haven't i?
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I'm so glad I'm not the only one who particularly notices this.
There are elements of soldier in his death - he doesn't want to die but he doesn't, I think, want Jack to make sacrifices to save him - but it was very. Yes. What you say.
It was an amazing death scene for him, but in the context of tv and tropes and mainstream media...
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Oh, there certainly are elements of the soldier in his death. It's a playing out of what he said to Jack: you stand up to them, (the implied: at whatever personal cost.) You do the right thing. They both go into Thames House with their moral high ground, and that's why it's so heartbreaking when Jack says, 'no, I take it back, not him' when he realises Ianto's been poisoned. The soldier/lover dichotomy is something that they've hinted at, but never really, properly played out of us on camera, and it's brilliant.
It was a good death. But yeah. Context, context, context. And, you know, very deliberate marketing. I'm rather unimpressed on that front.
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dear torchwood,
i am divorcing you, and i'm taking the kids.
no love at all,
elfie.
i can't imagine what they were thinking--they killed off two main characters FOUR EPISODES AGO--but that ianto was 1. my favorite 2. the queer one on the show (yes, jack counts as queer, but he's not actually a person in the same way) reeeeally upsets me. i'm basically at a point where if there is not the traditional implausibility devices at some point to reanimate him, i'm saying good riddance to any RTD related shenanigans in the future.
(seriously: my favorite AND the queer one? NICE. and they didn't even get to really make out! as you said, that wasted time!)
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it also seriously does break a promise it feels like they made for the fans. ugh. basically i agree with everything your saying. i don't watch torchwood for plot--i honestly don't think enough of the writers for that--i watch it for character, and they just keep... killing them off!!! what what?
(i do think the bit about pondering which kids to take was scarily plausible.)
* an exception would be a show like space: above and beyond, but that show maintained a certain level of darkness and pain throughout, so it felt like, since they definitely WEREN'T going to get another season or two, it was the only POSSIBLE way to end.
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