(no subject)
So, today being the day that it is, Jay and I ended up talking about the weirdness of courting and the gender roles within relationships and what they'd be in either gender's utopian society. We got off topic from that pretty quickly, but it was some interesting babble about relationships.
Jei: Do you think the game of courtship is as women would prefer it to be, men prefer it to be, or do you think it's just a hodge-podge of how the dice fell?
Quisalas: I think it's fucked up because women want chivalry and freedom and respect all at the same time.
Quisalas: I think a few decades ago it was how the women wanted it to be... even things like wearing heels and make up, women did it because they thought it was what mens wanted them to be, but it was pretty much just what women thought they would want.
Quisalas: These days, men have it BAD.
Quisalas: They have no idea how to deal with a woman because anything they do could offend.
Jei: So it's sort of a crashed version of women pushing for what they wanted?
Quisalas: Open the door for a woman? You're implying that she is weak and helpless. Don't open the door for a woman? You are implying she is not worth your effort
Quisalas: Yeah
Quisalas: And we all know women don't know what they want
Jei: ::nod:: True.
Jei: Men aren't much better. Or at least, if men know what they want they don't know what's good for them.
Quisalas: Ha!
Quisalas: Nice.
Quisalas: All of relationships' troubles stem from a lack of self confidence. Both sides are constantly expecting something bad to happen, and because of that they read negativity into things that aren't there, and become paranoid and jealous and upset and suspicious.
Quisalas: And if you look for fault, you will find it. That's just how it is.
Quisalas: Because no one is perfect, and everyone had fault, and new love is so fun and exciting and glorious that it's just all too easy to ditch a relationship that's stagnated for one where things *could* be better, and seem like they would be better
Jei: So you think the way men would do courtship it would be like the old days? Like... if you want a wife you obtain her through an interfamily contract and if you want sex you like, buy a prostitute or sexually assault someone?
Quisalas: I think Men want love too... they want whatever woman they have to like them. But back when being a success made you liked, you didn't need to be nice.
Quisalas: You didn't have to figure out how to tweak your existance to someone else's... and having clear lines of power and delegation within a relationship made decisions easier for everyone.
Quisalas: You wouldn't argue about things because, as a man, if you made a financial decision and it sucked, no one heckled you or belittled you.
Jei: ::nod:: it does. It's not that its right but it sure is less complicated.
Jei: Well, other men would but I guess your wife wasn't supposed to.
Quisalas: We manage to do the partnership without too much stress because I do defer decisions, especially all big decisions, to your choice. I have input, but ultimately if you say no, it's no.
Jei: Stress be me! O>O
Quisalas: The "romantic" relationship was very simple... women supported and loved their men, regardless. It was a very maternal love, and a guy needs to have someone who always encourages him.
Jei: I teh big strong?
Quisalas: It's like I tell someone I can't order pizza 'cause you said no. They get all feminazi and tell me to do it anyway. And it's like... uhm, no. He's my husband, the person I love most in this world, and I'm going to respect his part in my life.
Quisalas: But that's because I know I need someone to reel me in. And I accept that I need that limitation and appreciate you telling me no (usually not until after the fact)
Quisalas: It's more important to be happy and harmonious and balanced than it is to have the freedom to always get what I want. If I wanted to do what I wanted, fuck what anyone else said, I'd be single.
Jei: But ain't so you don't and we is?
Quisalas: ^_^
Quisalas: Very astute, my love.
Jei: Yays!
Jei: I'm an ass-toot.
Quisalas: -_-
Jei: Boo?
Jei: In a situation like Amazon women in the mood or something do you think like a society where women were able to be more free and aggressive would like... make them more honest and the whole affair less prickly for the men?
Jei: W:Me want snoo-snoo!
Jei: M: Yay!
Jei: ?
Jei: Or do you think women are free enough and it's a pretty much standard state for the female mind?
Quisalas: It'd be less prickly... except we'd have the same issues you and I do.
Quisalas: When I want to push for something I want, but you don't, I either have to force my hand and make you feel emasculated, or I have to back off and then the question of who actually has the power
Quisalas: We joke about me being the top... but when I say "let me suck your nipple" and you don't, I have to (eventually) back off out of respect for you.
Quisalas: Respect is a tricky thing. Anytime someone does something nice for someone else, particularly if it involves any level of self-sacrifice, you start to feel like you aren't respected. If you loved me, you would do what I ask. ~ If you loved me, you wouldn't ask me to do that.
Quisalas: I think it's hard for either side to do what it takes to please their partner without ending up feeling like they are being taken advantage of, or are selling themselves short, or are struggling between the issues of not wanting to feel too demanding or too giving.
Jei: Hmmm...
Jei: 1 hr and 42 minutes to lunch.
Quisalas: When I feel nice and happy and perky and I get your clothes for you in the morning, or make you breakfast, and do it of my own accord, it's a nice gesture. I'm being kind. If you ask me to do it and I don't mind, again, it's a kind gesture. If you ask me to do it and I don't want to, and then you gripe about me not doing it, you're being controlling and if I do what you say I'm a spineless sap.
Quisalas: At that point, am I reasonably standing up for myself, or am I being an uncaring bitch?
Quisalas: (If I refuse to do it)
Jei: If we had like... a marriage where you like the legal top or I was the legal top, that would maybe go back to making the MARRIAGE easier but the whole courtship thing sticky again?
Jei: How tragicly cyclic. -_-
Quisalas: Mhmm
Quisalas: That's why, if asked, I usually try to do what I can.
Quisalas: It's also why, if at all possible, I do nice things without ever being asked, because if it's not asked of me, it can't be belittling
Jei: Ahhh!
Jei: Wisdom, let you show me it.
And then we got off topic babbling about other shit.
Jei: Do you think the game of courtship is as women would prefer it to be, men prefer it to be, or do you think it's just a hodge-podge of how the dice fell?
Quisalas: I think it's fucked up because women want chivalry and freedom and respect all at the same time.
Quisalas: I think a few decades ago it was how the women wanted it to be... even things like wearing heels and make up, women did it because they thought it was what mens wanted them to be, but it was pretty much just what women thought they would want.
Quisalas: These days, men have it BAD.
Quisalas: They have no idea how to deal with a woman because anything they do could offend.
Jei: So it's sort of a crashed version of women pushing for what they wanted?
Quisalas: Open the door for a woman? You're implying that she is weak and helpless. Don't open the door for a woman? You are implying she is not worth your effort
Quisalas: Yeah
Quisalas: And we all know women don't know what they want
Jei: ::nod:: True.
Jei: Men aren't much better. Or at least, if men know what they want they don't know what's good for them.
Quisalas: Ha!
Quisalas: Nice.
Quisalas: All of relationships' troubles stem from a lack of self confidence. Both sides are constantly expecting something bad to happen, and because of that they read negativity into things that aren't there, and become paranoid and jealous and upset and suspicious.
Quisalas: And if you look for fault, you will find it. That's just how it is.
Quisalas: Because no one is perfect, and everyone had fault, and new love is so fun and exciting and glorious that it's just all too easy to ditch a relationship that's stagnated for one where things *could* be better, and seem like they would be better
Jei: So you think the way men would do courtship it would be like the old days? Like... if you want a wife you obtain her through an interfamily contract and if you want sex you like, buy a prostitute or sexually assault someone?
Quisalas: I think Men want love too... they want whatever woman they have to like them. But back when being a success made you liked, you didn't need to be nice.
Quisalas: You didn't have to figure out how to tweak your existance to someone else's... and having clear lines of power and delegation within a relationship made decisions easier for everyone.
Quisalas: You wouldn't argue about things because, as a man, if you made a financial decision and it sucked, no one heckled you or belittled you.
Jei: ::nod:: it does. It's not that its right but it sure is less complicated.
Jei: Well, other men would but I guess your wife wasn't supposed to.
Quisalas: We manage to do the partnership without too much stress because I do defer decisions, especially all big decisions, to your choice. I have input, but ultimately if you say no, it's no.
Jei: Stress be me! O>O
Quisalas: The "romantic" relationship was very simple... women supported and loved their men, regardless. It was a very maternal love, and a guy needs to have someone who always encourages him.
Jei: I teh big strong?
Quisalas: It's like I tell someone I can't order pizza 'cause you said no. They get all feminazi and tell me to do it anyway. And it's like... uhm, no. He's my husband, the person I love most in this world, and I'm going to respect his part in my life.
Quisalas: But that's because I know I need someone to reel me in. And I accept that I need that limitation and appreciate you telling me no (usually not until after the fact)
Quisalas: It's more important to be happy and harmonious and balanced than it is to have the freedom to always get what I want. If I wanted to do what I wanted, fuck what anyone else said, I'd be single.
Jei: But ain't so you don't and we is?
Quisalas: ^_^
Quisalas: Very astute, my love.
Jei: Yays!
Jei: I'm an ass-toot.
Quisalas: -_-
Jei: Boo?
Jei: In a situation like Amazon women in the mood or something do you think like a society where women were able to be more free and aggressive would like... make them more honest and the whole affair less prickly for the men?
Jei: W:Me want snoo-snoo!
Jei: M: Yay!
Jei: ?
Jei: Or do you think women are free enough and it's a pretty much standard state for the female mind?
Quisalas: It'd be less prickly... except we'd have the same issues you and I do.
Quisalas: When I want to push for something I want, but you don't, I either have to force my hand and make you feel emasculated, or I have to back off and then the question of who actually has the power
Quisalas: We joke about me being the top... but when I say "let me suck your nipple" and you don't, I have to (eventually) back off out of respect for you.
Quisalas: Respect is a tricky thing. Anytime someone does something nice for someone else, particularly if it involves any level of self-sacrifice, you start to feel like you aren't respected. If you loved me, you would do what I ask. ~ If you loved me, you wouldn't ask me to do that.
Quisalas: I think it's hard for either side to do what it takes to please their partner without ending up feeling like they are being taken advantage of, or are selling themselves short, or are struggling between the issues of not wanting to feel too demanding or too giving.
Jei: Hmmm...
Jei: 1 hr and 42 minutes to lunch.
Quisalas: When I feel nice and happy and perky and I get your clothes for you in the morning, or make you breakfast, and do it of my own accord, it's a nice gesture. I'm being kind. If you ask me to do it and I don't mind, again, it's a kind gesture. If you ask me to do it and I don't want to, and then you gripe about me not doing it, you're being controlling and if I do what you say I'm a spineless sap.
Quisalas: At that point, am I reasonably standing up for myself, or am I being an uncaring bitch?
Quisalas: (If I refuse to do it)
Jei: If we had like... a marriage where you like the legal top or I was the legal top, that would maybe go back to making the MARRIAGE easier but the whole courtship thing sticky again?
Jei: How tragicly cyclic. -_-
Quisalas: Mhmm
Quisalas: That's why, if asked, I usually try to do what I can.
Quisalas: It's also why, if at all possible, I do nice things without ever being asked, because if it's not asked of me, it can't be belittling
Jei: Ahhh!
Jei: Wisdom, let you show me it.
And then we got off topic babbling about other shit.