Multiculturalism and Social Justice

[inizitu]

I read these posts by Elizabeth Moon and Cat Valente, respectively.  (Short version: Moon wrote a long, fail-y rant about how being a good citizen, as an immigrant, means putting up with ignorant racist bullshit and cutting white folks some slack.  Valente more or less said  "Bullshit.  I am very disappointed in you.")  It got me thinking about

Comments

[alias_sqbr]

I think the best thing we can do, the very first step, is to engage with, listen to, and center the voices of people in those cultures who are engaging with the issues around those cultural practices.

Two example links: The dos and don’ts of defending Muslim women and Racism, feminism, and the issue of FGE.

[rootedinsong]

Well said!

[inizitu]

I haven't read the links yet, but thank you, I think this may be what I was looking for.

[tylik]

"Veiling, if the person expected to veil doesn't want too, is a civil rights issue that is part of a cultural practice."

This also applies if a person wants to veil and is being prevented from doing so (you might consider the situation in France). Veiling is often presenting in the west as being exactly equal to oppressing women. But the reality is a lot more complex, and in western societies the latter is at least as likely as the former.

[inizitu]

Yes, this is true. The point should always be, I think, to increase options, not decrease them. To forbid veiling is just as bad as to compel it.

[hlbr]

The very fact that western people are often in a really hurry to jump to talk about those issues of those people over there should be a clue on what's the problem

[inizitu]

the very fact that you say "For all of the problems in Western cultures, we are try to be cultures that value individual freedom and social justice." is implying, 'not like those cultures over there'. And I can bet anything that you have no idea on what struggles for social justice occur in other societies. Just from how you framed it.This is true, my knowledge outside my own culture is limited. Hell, my knowledge within my culture is limited, just by the fact of being human, and only being able to know a limited amount of things

[hlbr]

'objectively harmful to the cultures members' = according to whom? Who is this person who makes this 'objective' call?

You're asking me all the same questions again. If you don't like the answer -- or disagree, or whatever -- just say that.

I can't point to a line, because I would first have to invent an hypothetical case, and then state an hypothetical 'you' opinion, and then point where that 'you' went over the line. It just doesn't work that way.

I will repeat my general answer: if you burningly want to do social justice activism outside your own culture, get ready to be wrong, and get ready to listen first to the people in that culture and society.

(Also, I'm the daughter of two anthropologists -- probably my 'objective' morality will sound like cowardly moral relativism to you. This is a separate and probably not productive discussion.)

[inizitu]

I think you're general answer is good, and appreciate it. I understand not wanting to have a hypothetical discussion.

I'm think I'm reaching for more specific parameters for my behavior, a framework to base my choices around. Activist etiquette, maybe?

With respect to "objectively harmful" (and if you don't want to talk about it, I understand and respect that, I'm just throwing this out for anyone who wants to weigh in) perhaps a good starting point is "physical damage beyond cosmetic"? Or, maybe, "creates long-term, untenable psychological damage?" With the first I'm thinking of, say, the physical damage caused by female genital mutilation (or male circumcision), with the second, the psychological damage of a forced marriage (as opposed to an arranged marriage, which isn't necessarily unconsented.)

[syonanto]

*_* If you've written more about this topic, I would love to subscribe. Seriously. As I was reading through it, I found myself itching to nod vigorously at the end of every paragraph.

*high-fives you through the internet*

[inizitu]

*blush* Thanks. This is just me trying to muddle through something that's been chewing at my brain for awhile.

I'm really glad this forum is here, and I can feel comfortable posting this.

[amycat1959]

"Moon wrote a long, fail-y rant about how being a good citizen, as an immigrant, means putting up with ignorant racist bullshit and cutting white folks some slack."

That's not really accurate... In fact, quite a lot of what Moon writes (the generic "good citizenship means giving back" stuff) is admirable... She just FAILs totally when she gets to the last part of the essay, mis-applying the general thoughts on Good Citizens and going off about the Cordoba Center (better known as the -- mis-named -- "Ground Zero Mosque", which is NOT a Mosque -- nor a "memorial", as Moon calls it -- nor located at "Ground Zero").

I wish the teabaggers and corporatist pseudo-"libertarians" would take to heart the parts about how what's good for business is NOT necessarily good for the country, for instance...

[inizitu]

Yeah, I'm sorry there were lots of good things in the first half or so. The part that interested me was applying those ideas in a way that wasn't creepy and racist. =)

[theotherbaldwin]

Man, when W*ll Sh*tt*rly is the one schooling Moon on how faily and bigoted she is being... and is also totally in the right... it makes me feel like I'm on Bizarro World.

[inizitu]

And now the comment is gone and I can't read it! I'd sort of like to find it...