Theology 1

[radiumx]

A: "If there's a loving god, why is there war and suffering on Earth?"

B: "Because god gave humans free will"

A: "So, will we have free will in Heaven?"

thoughts from the religious?

Comments

[thedukeatreides]

So I'm not what you would probably call 'religious', but perhaps Heaven is only supposed to be populated with people who only chose to make Earth a more pleasant place, and whom your deity of choice believes will continue to make those choices in the afterlife? So that Heaven will be devoid of war and suffering?

[radiumx]

I actually find this to be a much more plausible, egalitarian, and sensible view of Heaven. There's sort of a 'Sinner's Sieve' (Judgement), and when you die, you'd go to a place populated with like minded individuals. With each successive 'reincarnation', you sort up (towards a place with more positive-minded individuals) or down (towards a place with less scrupulous fellows) according to your inclination. Thus, free will is preserved, but the realm still retains the qualities of the largest proportion of souls. To quote Jean-Paul Sartre, "L'enfer, c'est les autres" - "Hell is other people."

Not that I believe in reincarnation, but if I were God, that's how I'd run the show.

Anything goes with Plato!

[sidelong]

This is where believing in reincarnation comes in handy

[cayswann]

Oddly though, Western thought seems to think "reincarnation = second chance, good thing, happy, do-over" whereas the original concept was "reincarnation = not good, stuck in the same old grind, better to escape the spiral and go elsewhere."

[sidelong]

Well, Western thought has that whole "Dude, this guy rose from the dead and HE'S OUR SAVIOR." thing going.

I prefer to think that reincarnation is what you make it--it can rule or totally suck.

[evilgerbil]

Sometimes reincarnation can be good according to non Western schools of thought. Being a beetle in this life and getting reincarnated as a human is pretty good, because humans can hear the dhamma and achieve nibbana, whereas beetles cannot.

[wc_helmets]

While I'm not necessarily an Orthodox Christian or even a Christian, it's the religion I've studied the most. According to Tradition and Scripture, Heaven has various levels, the lowest being Paradise, mentioned by Christ to the thief on the Cross, and the thief was the first to enter Paradise upon his death. When Christ died, He descended into Hades to bring the righteous up to Paradise and to unite the Divine with Creation, so we may through right belief and right action move in accord with God and in fact become more and more "God" and less and less "self" through Deification

[cayswann]

Point to consider -- generic Protestant thought does not have Heaven in multi-levels. If that is found in Orthodox tradition, then you would know more about that than me. But it definitely seems a common thought in Catholic tradition, and in a different parallel universe in the Mormon tradition. (I'm making no claims to whether Mormon tradition falls within the borders of "typical Christian" thought, but most Protestants and Catholics would say Mormon is not Christian; and most Mormons would claim they are the "correct" version of Christian.)

[wc_helmets]

Yea, I was raised in a fairly typical Protestant Church setting and knew nothing about the levels of heaven. Orthodoxy doesn't have a specific schema, but they draw from Jewish tradition and 2 Corinthians 12:2 as foundation, as far as I know.

[radiumx]

individuals will have free will, yet they will be incapable of sin.

This is my issue with the core concept, all definitions of 'afterlife' aside. If you're unable to sin, you don't have the choice to sin, the same way a quadriplegic doesn't have a choice to walk.

If you take someone's choice away, they do not have 'free will'. If you take away mankind's ability to sin, they no longer have a choice whether or not they will do so.

[loaswearargyle]

I used to maintain the soul was part of or harbored a "spark of divinity" - the soul is a fragment of God. If this is the case, there would be no free-will in Heaven because Heaven (afterlife, ascension, whatever you want to call it) is really re-incorporation. God would not want God¹ to cause internal strife if God is to maintain perfection.

I'm not sure I really hold to this position anymore.

[trevor_wolfe]

so for what it is worth (which is not much I realize) I always thought of it this way yes we would have free will. I have a strong idea (dogma reference anyone?)most conflict (much like sidelong says) comes from the want of things i.e. a understanding of the world and that we need more of X in it. once we enter heaven we have access to teh knowledge of how everything and everyone works...the sort of ability to grasp all concepts. Similarly we shouldn't have many needs and what we do need should be able to be provided. if you can understand everything the other person is saying from all their angles and you have no physical needs what is their to get angry about?
mabye it only makes sence ot me but it seems like infinite understanding and careing should hlep out a lot in conflicts of intrest. (wow that whent on longer than I wanted)

and now the funny part: ::redneck:: I sure hope so bar fights are some of my fav-or-ite things when I'm not donating ot charity!