robin hood 3x10 redux; or, yes, it works (maybe even the bow), part 1
When I saw so many reactions to "Bad Blood" saying that such a close previous history between Robin and the Gisbornes didn't fit, I was surprised, because I thought it fit very well. But my memory's not always that great, so I've spent the last few days going back and re-watching some key episodes. And after that, I still think that a lot of it fits. There are bits that need stretching, as well, but fortunately I have an overactive suspension of disbelief and have managed to cram some square pegs into circular gaps. ;) Still, I don't think most of this requires any stretching, at all.
I've noted timer marks in brackets [ ] to make it easier to find these clips for anyone inclined to check them out.
Also, a warning: This is gonna be long. :)
I'm starting with 1x01, "Will You Tolerate This?" as it's one of the most crucial episodes in question.
Shortly after Robin and Much arrive back in Locksley Village, they encounter Dan Scarlett, who fills them (and us) in as to the situation [12:55]:
"Guy of Gisborne runs your estate, for the Sheriff."
"Does he?" Robin quietly replies, appearing more concerned than confused.
While I didn't take that at anything other than face value before, it is interesting when I think about it. First of all, I would be curious to know who Robin thought was running things, but that's something that's never going to be explained, this far after the fact. And researching who should have been in charge is probably useless, since historical accuracy isn't usually important here, lol. But more to the point, had Robin never known of Guy before (which wouldn't be unexpected, since he apparently wasn't familiar with Vaizey), I'd expect him to respond more along the lines of, "Who?" Then he and Much exchange a glance that reinforces the idea that he at least knows of Guy, but more likely knows him personally. Even though Much wasn't in 3x10, he'd surely know the history, especially since he does mention later on that Robin used to confide in him.
All of a sudden, Locksley Village is overrun with soldiers. Guy is about to wreak havoc on the peasants (more on that in a post to come) when Robin calls, "Wait!" and walks forward through the crowd. Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say the look Guy gives him screams of recognition, but it certainly looks it to me, especially with the way he squints at Robin first [16:01].
The next chunk of dialogue might seem to throw my hypothesis out the window.
"Guy of Gisborne," Robin says.
"Sir Guy of Gisborne, to you," a guard puts in. "And bow before your master."
"'Sir' Guy of Gisborne," Robin repeats, bowing with the same lightly mocking manner in which he said "Sir." More seriously, he continues, "My name is Robin, Earl of Huntington and lord of this manor."
It sure sounds like a first meeting. But I don't think that's necessarily the case.
When Robin initially addresses Guy, it's nearly a question, but not totally. In fact, it sounds almost like he's confirming what he knows. This could still allow for a previous relationship, since they apparently haven't seen each other since they were children. However, it could also be said that he just put two and two together and knew who Guy was based on what Dan had just been telling him. So, that's pretty inconclusive.
The lightly mocking manner in which Robin stresses Guy's title and bows is not uncommon in their later relationship. But, to my mind, it's not in keeping with an introductory moment, especially as Robin is upset, on Dan's behalf, with what Guy has been doing. I would not expect him to be that teasing-- but it works when looking at it as falling back into an old pattern. It's very reminiscent of the way Mini-Robin treated Not-So-Mini-Guy.
Then, there's Robin's self-introduction. But maybe it wasn't an introduction, except to the viewers to lay out who this version of Robin is. It could be that he was confirming his identity for Guy in the same way that he had just sought confirmation, and that he was asserting his authority over the situation.
The conversation between Robin and Guy at Locksley Manor [17:35] wasn't strange without a backstory, but it does seem to have undertones now. The only thing that strikes me as not entirely fitting is Guy's level of civility toward Robin. At this point, though, Robin is still socially above Guy, and Guy is very conscious of that sort of thing. Also, even when they were kids, Guy just took whatever Robin dealt out to him, so that also fits with their previous relationship.
Now, here's where there's a dialogue I've seen brought up a lot as regarding 3x10:
"Do not pretend that you do not love war," Guy sneers. "I've seen you fight."
"When?" Robin shoots back.
"I do not recall," Guy answers vaguely.
The issue is that Not-So-Mini-Guy was quite aware of Mini-Robin's prowess with a bow. But: that was never in a fight. Target practice-- even hunting-- are not enough to make Guy assert so strongly that Robin loves war, especially considering how young Robin was when they last met. This definitely implies a knowledge of Robin's adult self, and Robin rightly would be suspicious.
A brief mention of a section at the Castle [32:00-33:50]-- while this is nowhere near definitive, Guy's level of enjoyment at Robin's problems with the Sheriff, as well as how pointedly he escorts Marian away, could be seen as a personal issue that goes beyond getting back at Robin for his earlier disrespect. When Guy walked Marian off, what popped into my head was, "And your girlfriend, too!"-- because he is so bent on usurping Robin's life. There really is no reason for him to be so fixated on Robin. Edward had spoken out against the Sheriff and was in disfavor, and his holdings seem quite good; why wouldn't Guy look to Knighton if Locksley was lost to him? Or there are sure to be at least one or two other estates in the area he could claim. Vaizey was working on wiping out the village of Clun for his personal use; I can't see him not being willing to allow Guy to overthrow an errant landlord. However, this is just speculation.
All of those scenes lead me to wonder if a background between the two was considered from the start. Maybe there was a vague backstory worked out that they decided to turn into an episode before Robin is written out with Jonas's departure (which I think is a given at this point; I don't think the part is just going to be recast if there is a S4).
Now, the problem with all of this is that Isabella's introduction doesn't fit as well. It can be made to do so, and there are moments where it works perfectly-- but there's a lot of that square-round thing going on in 3x05, "Let the Games Commence." One thing that helps to figure it in is that one of Isabella's main traits is self-preservation. Keeping that in mind makes it easier to explain some apparent inconsistencies.
Before, I thought that the first look between Isabella and Robin was one of immediate attraction [1:56].
(Actually, she looks a little hunted in that screencap. Whoops, lol.) I still think that holds true for Robin, that he didn't recognize her. I do think that Isabella recognized him, however. It likely helped that Robin just announced to Squire Thornton's guards that he was Robin Hood, and according to Prince John, word of him has been spreading all over England. Considering his public altercations with Guy, the Sheriff, and just about anyone else on Team Castle's or Prince John's sides, it's a safe assumption that she would know of his enmity with her brother. And whilst she was fleeing to Guy for protection, she hadn't found him yet and was still in danger. I think that she was giving nothing away until she had weighed how best to play the situation to her benefit, especially since she already only half-trusted Guy, being deeply hurt that he'd given her to Thornton in the first place. Really, no one would have to ask Robin, "Why is Gisborne after you?" [25:12] She was trying to collect information and gauge everyone's responses.
His answer, "Because I'm an outlaw," hardly lends itself to this exchange toward the end of the episode [40:08]:
"If I had known you were Gisborne's sister..." Robin begins.
"What? You would've killed me?" Isabella demands.
I doubt that she would have made that leap if she was just drawing on the stories being spread about him, since he's famously non-violent.
But I think the most telling moment is when she prevents Guy from killing Robin [25:58]. She blocks Guy's blow with her sword, says something in French (I don't speak French, so I've no clue what), and we see Robin get a shocked look on his face, first directed at her, then at Guy.
Guy recognizes her just before she speaks, but it's not until after Robin has reacted that Guy acknowledges that he knows her. It could be argued that he's just realizing that they know each other, but it's just as easy to say that it fits in with their backstory. Anyway, in that moment of surprise, Robin kicks Guy away, and Isabella gives Robin a hand up. He's stunned, just staring at her. She says, "He's my brother," which is one of the weaker moments when trying to justify 3x10, but I suppose it could be stretched to be her saying it in case Robin hadn't remembered yet. Isabella is very self-centered, so it would make sense for her to use wording explaining Guy's relationship to her (He's MY brother), rather than who she is in relation to Guy (I'm HIS sister). But admittedly, that's stretching it. :)
UPDATE: Thanks to mattyroh07 for explaining the French in the comments-- Isabella cries, "Non! Mon frere doux!" which translates to, "No! My dear/sweet brother!" I think it's a safe assumption that Robin would understand that, since he's well-educated, so that could explain the shocked look. I still think it could work in that he suddenly realizes whom Isabella is, but it's not as strong a point now. (mattyroh also has a good suggestion in that the "He's my brother" could be her explaining to Robin what's going on, in case he didn't understand the French.)
When she and Guy are in the tent in Guy's camp immediately after that, his reaction to her leaving Thornton-- "You were joined in holy matrimony!"-- certainly makes sense when looking at his reaction to the disintegration of his parents' marriage. Really, the stances that Guy has always displayed on marriage and loyalty, as well as his reaction to betrayals, are very much explained by what happens in "Bad Blood." So, too, are Robin's fairly extreme sense of duty to the people around Locksley and his avoidance of emotion or remembrance (there's a brief bit in 1x03 where he discusses the former with Marian [30:10]).
(unlike the other screencaps, that doesn't really have bearing on the argument, but I want to keep the Guy-girls happy. ;) )
Back to 3x05 and the outlaws' camp [28:00], they're arguing about a plan that no one likes. Allan suggests that they wait.
"Wait for what?" Tuck cuts in, "Isabella to divulge everything she knows about us?"
"She wouldn't," Robin declares. Everyone looks at him like he's lost his mind. "All right? I know she wouldn't."
Kate continues to stare at Robin like he's a nutter (or like he's slapped her; I really never noticed that she had a thing for him this early before. I still don't like it). Allan turns and moves away before Robin's even done talking. Tuck just wants to talk about the plan and is impatient with discussion of Isabella. But look at Much. Sam's facial expressions are so subtle and fluid sometimes that a screencap really doesn't convey this well, but he makes Much look more resigned than surprised.
Now, I was really, really wanting some interaction between Mute-Izzy and Mini-Robin in the flashback episode. I wanted some explanation of WHY Robin kept insisting on her trustworthiness, and there were moments in 3x05 that suggested to me that they'd been closer than he and Not-So-Mini-Guy had been. However, that wasn't even nodded to in 3x10, so I hesitate to speculate too wildly on that front.
As this is getting so long, I think I'm going to break it up. Part 2 to come tomorrow.
I've noted timer marks in brackets [ ] to make it easier to find these clips for anyone inclined to check them out.
Also, a warning: This is gonna be long. :)
I'm starting with 1x01, "Will You Tolerate This?" as it's one of the most crucial episodes in question.
Shortly after Robin and Much arrive back in Locksley Village, they encounter Dan Scarlett, who fills them (and us) in as to the situation [12:55]:
"Guy of Gisborne runs your estate, for the Sheriff."
"Does he?" Robin quietly replies, appearing more concerned than confused.
While I didn't take that at anything other than face value before, it is interesting when I think about it. First of all, I would be curious to know who Robin thought was running things, but that's something that's never going to be explained, this far after the fact. And researching who should have been in charge is probably useless, since historical accuracy isn't usually important here, lol. But more to the point, had Robin never known of Guy before (which wouldn't be unexpected, since he apparently wasn't familiar with Vaizey), I'd expect him to respond more along the lines of, "Who?" Then he and Much exchange a glance that reinforces the idea that he at least knows of Guy, but more likely knows him personally. Even though Much wasn't in 3x10, he'd surely know the history, especially since he does mention later on that Robin used to confide in him.
All of a sudden, Locksley Village is overrun with soldiers. Guy is about to wreak havoc on the peasants (more on that in a post to come) when Robin calls, "Wait!" and walks forward through the crowd. Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say the look Guy gives him screams of recognition, but it certainly looks it to me, especially with the way he squints at Robin first [16:01].
The next chunk of dialogue might seem to throw my hypothesis out the window.
"Guy of Gisborne," Robin says.
"Sir Guy of Gisborne, to you," a guard puts in. "And bow before your master."
"'Sir' Guy of Gisborne," Robin repeats, bowing with the same lightly mocking manner in which he said "Sir." More seriously, he continues, "My name is Robin, Earl of Huntington and lord of this manor."
It sure sounds like a first meeting. But I don't think that's necessarily the case.
When Robin initially addresses Guy, it's nearly a question, but not totally. In fact, it sounds almost like he's confirming what he knows. This could still allow for a previous relationship, since they apparently haven't seen each other since they were children. However, it could also be said that he just put two and two together and knew who Guy was based on what Dan had just been telling him. So, that's pretty inconclusive.
The lightly mocking manner in which Robin stresses Guy's title and bows is not uncommon in their later relationship. But, to my mind, it's not in keeping with an introductory moment, especially as Robin is upset, on Dan's behalf, with what Guy has been doing. I would not expect him to be that teasing-- but it works when looking at it as falling back into an old pattern. It's very reminiscent of the way Mini-Robin treated Not-So-Mini-Guy.
Then, there's Robin's self-introduction. But maybe it wasn't an introduction, except to the viewers to lay out who this version of Robin is. It could be that he was confirming his identity for Guy in the same way that he had just sought confirmation, and that he was asserting his authority over the situation.
The conversation between Robin and Guy at Locksley Manor [17:35] wasn't strange without a backstory, but it does seem to have undertones now. The only thing that strikes me as not entirely fitting is Guy's level of civility toward Robin. At this point, though, Robin is still socially above Guy, and Guy is very conscious of that sort of thing. Also, even when they were kids, Guy just took whatever Robin dealt out to him, so that also fits with their previous relationship.
Now, here's where there's a dialogue I've seen brought up a lot as regarding 3x10:
"Do not pretend that you do not love war," Guy sneers. "I've seen you fight."
"When?" Robin shoots back.
"I do not recall," Guy answers vaguely.
The issue is that Not-So-Mini-Guy was quite aware of Mini-Robin's prowess with a bow. But: that was never in a fight. Target practice-- even hunting-- are not enough to make Guy assert so strongly that Robin loves war, especially considering how young Robin was when they last met. This definitely implies a knowledge of Robin's adult self, and Robin rightly would be suspicious.
A brief mention of a section at the Castle [32:00-33:50]-- while this is nowhere near definitive, Guy's level of enjoyment at Robin's problems with the Sheriff, as well as how pointedly he escorts Marian away, could be seen as a personal issue that goes beyond getting back at Robin for his earlier disrespect. When Guy walked Marian off, what popped into my head was, "And your girlfriend, too!"-- because he is so bent on usurping Robin's life. There really is no reason for him to be so fixated on Robin. Edward had spoken out against the Sheriff and was in disfavor, and his holdings seem quite good; why wouldn't Guy look to Knighton if Locksley was lost to him? Or there are sure to be at least one or two other estates in the area he could claim. Vaizey was working on wiping out the village of Clun for his personal use; I can't see him not being willing to allow Guy to overthrow an errant landlord. However, this is just speculation.
All of those scenes lead me to wonder if a background between the two was considered from the start. Maybe there was a vague backstory worked out that they decided to turn into an episode before Robin is written out with Jonas's departure (which I think is a given at this point; I don't think the part is just going to be recast if there is a S4).
Now, the problem with all of this is that Isabella's introduction doesn't fit as well. It can be made to do so, and there are moments where it works perfectly-- but there's a lot of that square-round thing going on in 3x05, "Let the Games Commence." One thing that helps to figure it in is that one of Isabella's main traits is self-preservation. Keeping that in mind makes it easier to explain some apparent inconsistencies.
Before, I thought that the first look between Isabella and Robin was one of immediate attraction [1:56].
(Actually, she looks a little hunted in that screencap. Whoops, lol.) I still think that holds true for Robin, that he didn't recognize her. I do think that Isabella recognized him, however. It likely helped that Robin just announced to Squire Thornton's guards that he was Robin Hood, and according to Prince John, word of him has been spreading all over England. Considering his public altercations with Guy, the Sheriff, and just about anyone else on Team Castle's or Prince John's sides, it's a safe assumption that she would know of his enmity with her brother. And whilst she was fleeing to Guy for protection, she hadn't found him yet and was still in danger. I think that she was giving nothing away until she had weighed how best to play the situation to her benefit, especially since she already only half-trusted Guy, being deeply hurt that he'd given her to Thornton in the first place. Really, no one would have to ask Robin, "Why is Gisborne after you?" [25:12] She was trying to collect information and gauge everyone's responses.
His answer, "Because I'm an outlaw," hardly lends itself to this exchange toward the end of the episode [40:08]:
"If I had known you were Gisborne's sister..." Robin begins.
"What? You would've killed me?" Isabella demands.
I doubt that she would have made that leap if she was just drawing on the stories being spread about him, since he's famously non-violent.
But I think the most telling moment is when she prevents Guy from killing Robin [25:58]. She blocks Guy's blow with her sword, says something in French (I don't speak French, so I've no clue what), and we see Robin get a shocked look on his face, first directed at her, then at Guy.
Guy recognizes her just before she speaks, but it's not until after Robin has reacted that Guy acknowledges that he knows her. It could be argued that he's just realizing that they know each other, but it's just as easy to say that it fits in with their backstory. Anyway, in that moment of surprise, Robin kicks Guy away, and Isabella gives Robin a hand up. He's stunned, just staring at her. She says, "He's my brother," which is one of the weaker moments when trying to justify 3x10, but I suppose it could be stretched to be her saying it in case Robin hadn't remembered yet. Isabella is very self-centered, so it would make sense for her to use wording explaining Guy's relationship to her (He's MY brother), rather than who she is in relation to Guy (I'm HIS sister). But admittedly, that's stretching it. :)
UPDATE: Thanks to mattyroh07 for explaining the French in the comments-- Isabella cries, "Non! Mon frere doux!" which translates to, "No! My dear/sweet brother!" I think it's a safe assumption that Robin would understand that, since he's well-educated, so that could explain the shocked look. I still think it could work in that he suddenly realizes whom Isabella is, but it's not as strong a point now. (mattyroh also has a good suggestion in that the "He's my brother" could be her explaining to Robin what's going on, in case he didn't understand the French.)
When she and Guy are in the tent in Guy's camp immediately after that, his reaction to her leaving Thornton-- "You were joined in holy matrimony!"-- certainly makes sense when looking at his reaction to the disintegration of his parents' marriage. Really, the stances that Guy has always displayed on marriage and loyalty, as well as his reaction to betrayals, are very much explained by what happens in "Bad Blood." So, too, are Robin's fairly extreme sense of duty to the people around Locksley and his avoidance of emotion or remembrance (there's a brief bit in 1x03 where he discusses the former with Marian [30:10]).
(unlike the other screencaps, that doesn't really have bearing on the argument, but I want to keep the Guy-girls happy. ;) )
Back to 3x05 and the outlaws' camp [28:00], they're arguing about a plan that no one likes. Allan suggests that they wait.
"Wait for what?" Tuck cuts in, "Isabella to divulge everything she knows about us?"
"She wouldn't," Robin declares. Everyone looks at him like he's lost his mind. "All right? I know she wouldn't."
Kate continues to stare at Robin like he's a nutter (or like he's slapped her; I really never noticed that she had a thing for him this early before. I still don't like it). Allan turns and moves away before Robin's even done talking. Tuck just wants to talk about the plan and is impatient with discussion of Isabella. But look at Much. Sam's facial expressions are so subtle and fluid sometimes that a screencap really doesn't convey this well, but he makes Much look more resigned than surprised.
Now, I was really, really wanting some interaction between Mute-Izzy and Mini-Robin in the flashback episode. I wanted some explanation of WHY Robin kept insisting on her trustworthiness, and there were moments in 3x05 that suggested to me that they'd been closer than he and Not-So-Mini-Guy had been. However, that wasn't even nodded to in 3x10, so I hesitate to speculate too wildly on that front.
As this is getting so long, I think I'm going to break it up. Part 2 to come tomorrow.