Manipulation of Memories

[readerravenclaw]

Towards the end of OotP, Voldemort deliberately opened the mental connection between himself and Harry in order to "show" Harry false images of Sirius being tortured in the Department of Mysteries

Comments

[dawniky]

Great question ... I never really thought of it. Perhaps Voldemort just ... thought it. Thought about every detail? Thought about what he would say, what he gathered Sirius would say, how he would act. The mind is powerful and mixed with magic, anything is possible.

[readerravenclaw]

But how can mixing in magic affect an image? Magic doesn't have any conciousness, any cognitive ability, that it could expand on a half-formed image and make it so vivid that it appeared real. Where would it get the extra details from? Thin air? "It's magic" has never been an explanation for me. :) Even magic has rules, and it doesn't make sense that magic could actually create details, could transform a vague thought into a vivid, life-like scenario

[alchemia]

The human mind does not usually have the capability to imagine a scene that never happened in such vivid detail such that another person experiencing that scene would believe it to be real.I think that depends on the individual as everyone has a somewhat different way of thinking. Some peopel for example are highly verbal and think in words and sounds etc. Some are highly visual or kinesthetic (raising my hand). I also think that if such "communication" was possible if two people who thought in vastly different ways tried sending eahcother such images/memories, it wouldn't "feel" real no matter how realistic it was to the first person, simply because it would not mesh with the other person's mode of thought. If voldie sent me a "memory" in which I could "hear" the peopel talking for example, I imagine it could work either two ways: 1) I would actually "hear" the voices, in which case, I'd know the memory wa s "faked" because its not the way I think, ever OR 2) my mind would try to 'translate' the memory, trying to put the 'voices'

[alchemia]

PS. As for how Voldie could do it and making that mesh with canon? I suppose we could imagine that the bond that voldie and harry have (thru harrys scar) allows a some of meshing of thought processes so that if Voldie is a visual/verbal thinker (as opposed to kinesthetic, taste, etc.) then Harry is also a visual/verbal thinker and the things they imagine realistically would appear realistic to the other person because the mode of thought is the same. With another person it might not work so seemlessly.

Of course there is also the "Its magic!" explaination =)

[readerravenclaw]

I don't think its a question of "vividness". My ability to conceptualise colour or shape or texture in my head is indeed vivid.

Really? So vivid that you would be able to vividly imagine any scene at will in such detail that someone "living through it" would think that the scene was actually happening? I know that some people have a much better ability to visual than other people, but usually that's visualizing a specific image, not an entire sequence of events. Also, would you be able to visualize a sequence of events and create emotions to go along with it at the appropriate places? It just seems to me that the images would have to be based on real memories. Altered, of course, with some alternate images substituted, perhaps some of them only imagined and not real, but....

her Penseives look to me to be built on the general publics complete misunderstanding of what a "photographic memory" is

Could you expand on this, please? I'm curious about what exactly you mean by that. :)

[alchemia]

So vivid that you would be able to vividly imagine any scene at will in such detail that someone "living through it" would think that the scene was actually happening?

Let me put it this way, I could visualise (lets say, thru the act of lucid-dreaming) a scene that would seem as clear as a vivid dream, or a vivid memory. I believe that is all Harry needed to have it believable, because that is his experience of the "voldi-vision" thru dreams/visions (as opposed to having it be like a hallucination).
Could someone else thru some miricle of science/magic believe my visualisation of something is a "real" memory/vision? Only if they Think exactly as I do!

I know that some people have a much better ability to visual than other people, but usually that's visualizing a specific image, not an entire sequence of events.Perhaps usually, but persons with more photographic-type visual memories could easily string specific images together to create an event and ten events together into an entire sequence/situation. Pick up "Mind of

the little baby woke up and fort what it dweamed was twoo.

[hobviously]

I've wondered this myself! My thoughts are twofold. One possibility is that Voldemort constructed a glamour entirely outside his head, for anyone who would have been there to see, and then sent a video, as it were, of that to Harry. What I think is more likely, though, is Voldemort simply sending a collection of thoughts to Harry, whose sleeping brain would give them the detail and visuals needed. For example, how would Voldemort even know what Sirius looked like at that point? The closest he could come is Legilimens-ing an image of Time Turner Night Sirius from Peter's head. Dreams capitalize on our imaginations, and I fancy that Harry's imagination grabbed onto the suggestions given him by Voldemort and blew them up to the worst case scenario.

Re: the little baby woke up and fort what it dweamed was twoo.

[readerravenclaw]

I don't think that the scenario was created in any part through Harry's imagination, simply because Voldemort needed Harry to believe a number of very specific things, and so Voldemort couldn't possibly leave that up to chance. Also, that conflicts with Harry's other images, which were all of real-life scenarios; if Voldemort hadn't constructed a complete scenario, or "movie" so to speak, then Harry would have noticed the difference between this vision and his other visions. And why wouldn't an image of time-turner night Sirius be good enough? After all, the Sirius in the "movie" has been tortured for a while, so it would make sense for him to look wild and gaunt - and since Sirius is in the shadows most of the time, and Harry is in such shock, any differences wouldn't be noticed.

[teawithvoldy]

I thought Voldemort imagined the scenes, quite vividly and transferred them to Harry.

The question is... could Harry be trained to do the same and trick Voldemort?

[anonymous]

How did Voldemort prepare the false images to "show" to Harry? The human mind does not usually have the capability to imagine a scene that never happened in such vivid detail such that another person experiencing that scene would believe it to be real.

How about magic? Besides the human mind normally can't communicate psychically with another yet Voldemort and Harry manage to do it to a degree.

Voldemort does have super-human abilities, but I find it difficult to believe that they extend to this as well.

The wizards are by nature super humans in their abilities. Somehow I don't see how Voldemort can't do it.

[readerravenclaw]

You're missing the point. Magic isn't the answer to everything. Just as it would be impossible for there to be a spell to create an entire, original symphony with nothing more than magic, it is impossible for magic to create a vivid sequence of events without any input from the spell-caster. And not just any input; even if the wizard were to imagine the basic idea in words, say, "magic" would not be able to supply the missing details and fill in the gaps of the actual imagery. "Magic" is not sentient; it can only work with what it has been given.