The Prophecy: Fate and Free Will in the Harry Potter Books

[readerravenclaw]

I was recently reading through some of my very old posts at the SQ, and in reading through one of my essay-like posts, I decided to repost it here, revised and expanded

Comments

[alecto_chan]

Bravo. I couldn't have said it any better than myself. All prophecies are subject to interpretation and there may, in fact, be no correct interpretation either since prophecies of this nature are more often misinterpreted than not. Prophecies are stepping stones that suggest a path that can be taken but not necessarily. You argued an excellent case for Free Will.

[readerravenclaw]

Well, prophecies are definitely subject to misinterpretation, but there always is a true interpretation - whatever it is that actually happens. :) Also, I don't view prophecies as suggesting "a path that can be taken but not necessarily" - I view prophecies as an actual foretelling of some event that will occur in the future, albeit in vague language that - before the actual event happens - is open to interpretation.

But I'm glad you liked the essay, and I certainly agree with you in that there is nothing about prophecies that negates free will. :)

[alecto_chan]

Lol. I guess I'm just even more closer to the Free Will end of the spectrum. Thanks for sharing with us.

[arwencordelia]

Very good point that the result of the prophecy (or any event outside of one's control) doesn't negate free will, especially since this is frequently overlooked when thinking about the prophecy. Harry himself, in OOTP, thinks something to the effect of "his life will either include or end in murder' (paraphrased, I can't remember it exactly). As you point out, this is not necessarily so - Harry could also decide he's had enough of the wizarding world and never face Voldemort at all.

[readerravenclaw]

Actually, I wasn't trying to argue that Harry could - through his choices - avoid facing Voldemort altogether. We must assume that the prophecy will hold true, and that even if Harry would decide to flee the wizarding world, Voldemort would follow after him and confront him regardless. My point was that within this prophecy, there is still room for choice: will Harry prepare himself, and do all he can to win, or will he just give up in despair?

[arwencordelia]

Yes, the part about "neither can live while the other survives" probably negates that possibility, doesn't it? (I interpret that to mean that eventually one must kill the other, since they're both alive now). I wonder if it's still possible, though, for Harry to try and avoid it all, as long as he can... thus letting everyone else struggle on their own until Voldemort finally finds him.

[prec1ous_g0llum]

If I remember OotP correctly (I don't have the book to hand right now) there's something that says that as long as Harry can still call his aunt Petunia's house home, Voldemort cannot touch him there (something to do with his mother's sacrifice, he is still protected while he lives with her blood relative.) So if Harry was to choose to stay at Privet Drive and leave the wizarding world, would that help him avoid it all?

[astraynotion]

Good essay. In some ways, the prophecy is about choice and possibility, more than anything else. There are two very definite, polar outcomes and it is the choice and actions of the characters that will determine which of those two comes to pass.

"... and either must die at the hands of the other, for neither can live while the other survives.... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...."
That particular phrasing got me, in particular the use of the terms "live" and "survive". There is more to living than just being alive. When Harry was surviving, as a baby, Voldemort was not free to live, to do what he wanted. Harry's existance ruled over Voldemort's, and Voldemort clearly did not take the prophecy lightly.

Now that Voldemort survives, Harry is not free to live - there is the constant shadow of Voldemort in his past.

Just a thought...

[readerravenclaw]

I really, really like that interpretation of "live" and "survive" - in fact, now that you've pointed it out, it seems so likely that I can't understand why I didn't think of that myself. :) I've always found the exact wording of the prophecy to be interesting; the fanfic I'm writing actually relies on the specific wording of the prophecy to remain canon-viable.

[pufftmg]

I don't think I agree with the philosophy behind your essay.

The emphasis you have placed on choice is, in my opinion, unjustified or, at the very least, the comparison between 'real life' and the Harry Potter world is not necessary.

In real life, with our current levels of technology, it is not possible to return to the past and change something; in other words, there is nothing to suggest that what we think of as a choice, actually is a choice, because there is no way (that we currently know) that we could do other that what we did.

In the Harry Potter World, however, magic allows them to see the differences their choices actually make - evidence that they do have a choice (i.e. the time turner). As such, while I feel a direct comparison between the two worlds does not provide enough evidence to support the concept of free-will and choice (on the contrary, it compels me to believe that they don't have free-will), the dynamics of the Harry Potter world already show that choice is always possible

[scribbling_elf]

In the Harry Potter World, however, magic allows them to see the differences their choices actually make

Or does it? The way the situation is set up, it seems as if the time travel and its subsequent consequences are all already built into the story. How else do you explain Harry's patronus rescuing him? Everything that Harry did when he was in the past fit with what he had observed previous to his time travel. JK seems to follow the theory of time travel that you can't change anything. Time is already a pretzel, so to speak, and nothing really changed. Buckbeak never died, Sirius never received the Dementor's Kiss, because there never was a time that Harry wasn't there to rescue them.

[pufftmg]

I see what you mean...

In which case, until I think of some way to get round it, I am forced to accept free-will and choice is an illusion in the Potter world as well.

Damn, here I was thinking at least, if I became a wizard, there would be one way to get back free-will!

;)

[readerravenclaw]

The problem with arguing that people have no free will is that it's a completely useless statement. We live our lives as though we have free will, and we process every logical decision based on the given premise that we have free will. Emotionally, you believe we have free will; if not, you'd be really messed up psychologically, and I assume that's not the case. Trying to argue that we have no free will is just... pointless. A mind game, you might call it. Semantics. You can't fault an author for writing as though her characters have free will, because writers write about life, and we live our lives as though we have free will.

It's quite late at night, and I know that my argument isn't clear or at all organized, but I hope I get some of my point across.

[straussmonster]

I wave a flag for the idea that the wording of the prophecy (very careful, it is) will be resolved in such a way that it seems simply and utterly obvious, in retrospect.

I also think that Harry is going to do something that resolves this all in the end that is *not* the reading that Dumbledore puts on it (the kill or be killed), and that it will hopefully be something elegant with all kinds of nice thematic resonances--and it is something only Harry can do.

I have no idea what that IS, of course...

[readerravenclaw]

I'm not sure if I agree with you completely, I do think that Voldemort will not simply be killed in a straightforward manner, and I agree that the meaning of the wording of the prophecy will probably be really obvious in retrospect. :) For the most part, JKR has been really good with details and general themes and symbolic-type issues, so until and unless the seventh book is written and does not tie everything up neatly, I'm going to trust JKR. :)