Dealing with dealers
I've been wanting to upgrade my iMac. It's circa 2010, and it's starting to feel slow sometimes. Nothing too urgent. But I do spend a lot of time on this thing.
I would postpone this for a couple of months at least, as I just bought a bunch of appliances. But it turns out that the local Apple representative has a kind of "March Madness" sale, 15% off. So that means buying now.
It works like this in Israel. We only have one official representative. There are a lot of unofficial importers of iPhones, which are easy to ship and stock, but if you want to buy a Mac, you have to buy it from the official representative. The representative has "Apple-Store-Lookalikes" in various places, but it's usually a bit stuffy: no trade-ins, payment only with credit card, and so on.
However, there are resellers, or as they are called here, "dealers". They buy from the representative, and they are usually small shops that offer additional services to professional customers, like integration services, specialization in Education, Photography, or whatever. As they buy from the representative, they don't have much latitude about prices, but they do offer more flexibility - and trade ins, as they have standing business clientele who can make use of a used computer if it comes with a proper receipt for tax deduction.
Personally, I hate selling my stuff in the free market. I always prefer trade in though I could possibly get higher prices in the free market. Also, I can't give a receipt.
Anyway, I noticed that, surprisingly, the actual representative was offering some sort of trade-in, at the same time as the sale, which makes this all very attractive. I'm still not sure if it applies to my case, as the form on their web site didn't work properly, so I asked about it on the local Mac forum. Eventually, though, I found the trade-in agreement on their site, and it says that the max value for the traded-in machine would be 2000NIS, which is supposed to be about half the market price for my type of computer, more or less. Not very good. In the meantime, though, several of the "dealers" answered my forum message, offering to give me their own trade-in deals and that they also have the March sale prices.
One of them had an unclear web site. The other is up in the North and I have no way of taking my iMac there. But the third one looked interesting. He has this "used mac price list" web site, where one can supposedly get an estimate about the value of one's Mac, in the free market, in a trade in deal, or selling privately to a dealer. That's where I got my initial estimate of the value of my Mac. So he answers my forum message, and says he has the March sale, plus will trade in at the "price list" price.
Only, when he says "March sale", he says 11%, not 15%. I ask about that, he doesn't answer.
Never mind, I contact him, and ask for more detail. He says he'll give me 1500NIS for my old Mac. Wait, sir, wasn't it your site that said it was more like 4000NIS? A bit less for a trade-in deal, but still, you're offering half of that?
"Well," he answers - in a private communication, that is - "the 'price list' is just a recommendation. Anyway, I can't pay that much when there is a sale going on."
Well, I happen to know that he already lowered the prices in the "price list" because of the sale - he mentioned that only a couple of days earlier. I'm not exactly sure why a sale on new computers is supposed to lower the price on used ones, but suppose it does, you have already reduced it on the site, and now you cut it by half, and that's after saying "trade in at the price-list prices"?
Sigh. No cookie for that dealer. And if he dares say anywhere on the forum ever again that he is "selling at the price-list prices", I'm going to call him out.
Now, I was wondering how I'd physically pay for it, anyway, as again, I bought too many appliances and I'm near hitting the max on my credit card. Now, it's not a terrible problem. I can call my bank, and ask them for a temporary extension. But I'll probably have to pay a bit for that. But I got to thinking: why am I using a credit card anyway for this stuff?
Debit cards have only been introduced in Israel recently. And the banks and card companies are doing their best to ensure that people don't use them. Why? Because they make their big profits on debt, and on people spending more than they have. Overdraft is allowed and common in Israel. It's like a loan at a very high interest rate. But people don't think of it like that, because it's so freaking available. And credit cards follow the same idea. You just pay for everything using them, and people are tempted to buy stuff at installments, and don't keep tabs on their expenses, and get pretty shocked when the day of payment comes. But hey, it just adds a bit to the "minus" (as people here call their pet overdrafts). Credit card companies also offer easy access loans. More debt. You wouldn't believe the kind of debt middle-class Israelis are used to and feel comfortable with. Of course, lose your job and you find yourself in a spiral. And you never save anything because you keep paying for debts.
I try to steer free of this culture. I remember my parents' eternal overdraft. It simply makes no sense to me to live in debt - unless there is some medical emergency, perhaps. If I need the money to stay alive I'll probably borrow and beg. And a mortgage is also half-way sensible. But conduct a whole life with money I haven't made yet? So I don't get into an overdraft. I cancelled the "credit line" for that when I realized what it was. Imagine paying for the right to have an overdraft? Gah. But then, why am I using a credit card? Sometimes there is no choice - the telecom companies, for example, won't take anything else these days. But I'm sure if there were debit cards when I opened that account, I'd take one rather than a credit card.
Anyway, the government noticed that the banks and credit card companies were not playing fair. For example, banks were demanding a per-deal fee on debit cards. We have a credit card duopoly, and the banks are a closed oligopoly, and eventually the antitrust authority decided to take action. So they now have these rules - no fees per deal on debit cards, the bank has to inform the customer that debit cards are available and what their benefits are, and if the customer has a credit card, the debit card has to be free of any charge. Also, there is regulation of the charging fees on the seller side, but that's a different story. The bottom line is that the Bank of Israel and the Antitrust authority set up regulations to encourage people to switch to debit cards.
Only, the banks are not complying. For example, I did get "informed" about the right to have a debit card. In an in-mail message, buried deep within the web site "in-mail" containing tons of messages about all the small transactions and changes of policy and whatnot. And the notification did not include any mention of the benefits.
Well, I got educated about all this today when I was looking for an alternative to using my credit card. So I decided to go to my branch and ask for a debit card. Just to make sure, I asked them if it was true that the card was free of charge.
"Well, there's a small fee. About 8NIS a month".
Wait, what? I just read the bank price list before I came there. Can you put up the price list on your computer?
"There's no way for me to do that".
Huh? Anyway, the Bank of Israel ruled that if I have a credit card, there's no fee.
"I've never heard of that. Anyway, your credit card is from credit company A, and only credit company B issues debit cards"
Well, that's beside the point. The credit and the fee are bank charges. They are not deducted by the credit card company, but by the bank itself. Anyway, I wanted to prove to her that it's in the bank price list, but my phone was unable to download it. The other clerk was nice enough to call a superior. But he also said that it's only for people having credit cards from company B.
I left without a debit card. Came back home to make sure it doesn't say that in the price list. It doesn't. It states clearly that "The fee shall be waived for a customer who has a credit card for which the credit line is set by the bank rather than a credit card company". Which means that I am not supposed to pay. I wrote a complaint to the complaints department of the bank. I'll see how it goes.
But the banks' Hutzpah is amazing. Fibbing about that fee is one thing. But also "I am not able to show you the bank's price list"? Sorry, am I supposed to sign for services without knowing how much they cost? She was actually saying "I remember it was something around 8NIS a month. It'll display it when I place the order." Imagine that in any other business offering a service.
So, two annoyances for one day.
I would postpone this for a couple of months at least, as I just bought a bunch of appliances. But it turns out that the local Apple representative has a kind of "March Madness" sale, 15% off. So that means buying now.
It works like this in Israel. We only have one official representative. There are a lot of unofficial importers of iPhones, which are easy to ship and stock, but if you want to buy a Mac, you have to buy it from the official representative. The representative has "Apple-Store-Lookalikes" in various places, but it's usually a bit stuffy: no trade-ins, payment only with credit card, and so on.
However, there are resellers, or as they are called here, "dealers". They buy from the representative, and they are usually small shops that offer additional services to professional customers, like integration services, specialization in Education, Photography, or whatever. As they buy from the representative, they don't have much latitude about prices, but they do offer more flexibility - and trade ins, as they have standing business clientele who can make use of a used computer if it comes with a proper receipt for tax deduction.
Personally, I hate selling my stuff in the free market. I always prefer trade in though I could possibly get higher prices in the free market. Also, I can't give a receipt.
Anyway, I noticed that, surprisingly, the actual representative was offering some sort of trade-in, at the same time as the sale, which makes this all very attractive. I'm still not sure if it applies to my case, as the form on their web site didn't work properly, so I asked about it on the local Mac forum. Eventually, though, I found the trade-in agreement on their site, and it says that the max value for the traded-in machine would be 2000NIS, which is supposed to be about half the market price for my type of computer, more or less. Not very good. In the meantime, though, several of the "dealers" answered my forum message, offering to give me their own trade-in deals and that they also have the March sale prices.
One of them had an unclear web site. The other is up in the North and I have no way of taking my iMac there. But the third one looked interesting. He has this "used mac price list" web site, where one can supposedly get an estimate about the value of one's Mac, in the free market, in a trade in deal, or selling privately to a dealer. That's where I got my initial estimate of the value of my Mac. So he answers my forum message, and says he has the March sale, plus will trade in at the "price list" price.
Only, when he says "March sale", he says 11%, not 15%. I ask about that, he doesn't answer.
Never mind, I contact him, and ask for more detail. He says he'll give me 1500NIS for my old Mac. Wait, sir, wasn't it your site that said it was more like 4000NIS? A bit less for a trade-in deal, but still, you're offering half of that?
"Well," he answers - in a private communication, that is - "the 'price list' is just a recommendation. Anyway, I can't pay that much when there is a sale going on."
Well, I happen to know that he already lowered the prices in the "price list" because of the sale - he mentioned that only a couple of days earlier. I'm not exactly sure why a sale on new computers is supposed to lower the price on used ones, but suppose it does, you have already reduced it on the site, and now you cut it by half, and that's after saying "trade in at the price-list prices"?
Sigh. No cookie for that dealer. And if he dares say anywhere on the forum ever again that he is "selling at the price-list prices", I'm going to call him out.
Now, I was wondering how I'd physically pay for it, anyway, as again, I bought too many appliances and I'm near hitting the max on my credit card. Now, it's not a terrible problem. I can call my bank, and ask them for a temporary extension. But I'll probably have to pay a bit for that. But I got to thinking: why am I using a credit card anyway for this stuff?
Debit cards have only been introduced in Israel recently. And the banks and card companies are doing their best to ensure that people don't use them. Why? Because they make their big profits on debt, and on people spending more than they have. Overdraft is allowed and common in Israel. It's like a loan at a very high interest rate. But people don't think of it like that, because it's so freaking available. And credit cards follow the same idea. You just pay for everything using them, and people are tempted to buy stuff at installments, and don't keep tabs on their expenses, and get pretty shocked when the day of payment comes. But hey, it just adds a bit to the "minus" (as people here call their pet overdrafts). Credit card companies also offer easy access loans. More debt. You wouldn't believe the kind of debt middle-class Israelis are used to and feel comfortable with. Of course, lose your job and you find yourself in a spiral. And you never save anything because you keep paying for debts.
I try to steer free of this culture. I remember my parents' eternal overdraft. It simply makes no sense to me to live in debt - unless there is some medical emergency, perhaps. If I need the money to stay alive I'll probably borrow and beg. And a mortgage is also half-way sensible. But conduct a whole life with money I haven't made yet? So I don't get into an overdraft. I cancelled the "credit line" for that when I realized what it was. Imagine paying for the right to have an overdraft? Gah. But then, why am I using a credit card? Sometimes there is no choice - the telecom companies, for example, won't take anything else these days. But I'm sure if there were debit cards when I opened that account, I'd take one rather than a credit card.
Anyway, the government noticed that the banks and credit card companies were not playing fair. For example, banks were demanding a per-deal fee on debit cards. We have a credit card duopoly, and the banks are a closed oligopoly, and eventually the antitrust authority decided to take action. So they now have these rules - no fees per deal on debit cards, the bank has to inform the customer that debit cards are available and what their benefits are, and if the customer has a credit card, the debit card has to be free of any charge. Also, there is regulation of the charging fees on the seller side, but that's a different story. The bottom line is that the Bank of Israel and the Antitrust authority set up regulations to encourage people to switch to debit cards.
Only, the banks are not complying. For example, I did get "informed" about the right to have a debit card. In an in-mail message, buried deep within the web site "in-mail" containing tons of messages about all the small transactions and changes of policy and whatnot. And the notification did not include any mention of the benefits.
Well, I got educated about all this today when I was looking for an alternative to using my credit card. So I decided to go to my branch and ask for a debit card. Just to make sure, I asked them if it was true that the card was free of charge.
"Well, there's a small fee. About 8NIS a month".
Wait, what? I just read the bank price list before I came there. Can you put up the price list on your computer?
"There's no way for me to do that".
Huh? Anyway, the Bank of Israel ruled that if I have a credit card, there's no fee.
"I've never heard of that. Anyway, your credit card is from credit company A, and only credit company B issues debit cards"
Well, that's beside the point. The credit and the fee are bank charges. They are not deducted by the credit card company, but by the bank itself. Anyway, I wanted to prove to her that it's in the bank price list, but my phone was unable to download it. The other clerk was nice enough to call a superior. But he also said that it's only for people having credit cards from company B.
I left without a debit card. Came back home to make sure it doesn't say that in the price list. It doesn't. It states clearly that "The fee shall be waived for a customer who has a credit card for which the credit line is set by the bank rather than a credit card company". Which means that I am not supposed to pay. I wrote a complaint to the complaints department of the bank. I'll see how it goes.
But the banks' Hutzpah is amazing. Fibbing about that fee is one thing. But also "I am not able to show you the bank's price list"? Sorry, am I supposed to sign for services without knowing how much they cost? She was actually saying "I remember it was something around 8NIS a month. It'll display it when I place the order." Imagine that in any other business offering a service.
So, two annoyances for one day.