Comments | redmomoko: Talkin' about Je-sus

redmomoko

Talkin' about Je-sus

Jan 22, 2010 20:15

Yesterday I posted a question on FB asking Christian friends their reaction to question "If Jesus had died in bed at ripe old age, would he still have died for your sins?" Unfortunately, I was not able to phrase the question quite so pithly at the time so there was a lot of confusion about what I was asking. Here's where that came from ( Read more... )

Comments 12

redmomoko January 30 2010, 01:51:31 UTC

Thanks everyone for awesome comments. I guess what had me bummed about the FB post was that no one else had that moment of frisson but I guess that's not something that can be easily passed along.

Yes, the audacity and self-righteousness of the original message is what gave me an initial reaction...it was so....AMERICAN in that certain way that only we Americans can be.

What is it about our national personality that we have such a visceral dislike of subtlety, facts and thoughtfulness?

merriehaskell February 1 2010, 03:40:05 UTC

I guess the thing I didn't get about the question you were asking is... how could it be the same at all without him dying? Martyrdom is such a huge part of the Christian ethos, and well. We (of European descent) would all be Jewish, or pagan Romans, or pagan Celts, or pagan Germans, or Muslims without Christ dying. We wouldn't be Christian if he hadn't. I don't think Christianity would have amounted to much of anything at all without the resurrection--wouldn't have caught on at all, would've been an also-ran along with Manichaeism or something. And Celtic religions were pretty much death/sacrifice based anyway... there was kind of a reason that Christianity caught on so well in those countries ( ... )

redmomoko February 1 2010, 05:11:15 UTC

Yes, totally change everything but not have to die for it. The requirement of martyrdom is such a....thing for our culture. We assume that if you are a religious leader and you don't die at the hands of people who don't like you, then you are a fraud ( ... )

merriehaskell February 1 2010, 16:56:00 UTC

The basic problem seems to be that the message prior to the Crucifixion never seems to be as important as the message imparted BY the Crucifixion, and that's where the speedbump is for me. Hm.

"Choose martydom brand for religious quality assurance!"

LOL

hm! amnesiadust July 9 2010, 00:15:57 UTC

Hey, so I know this is an old post, but also an interesting one; I started browsing what you'd written after the Time Cube commentary.

Full disclosure, not a Christian and doubt I could play one on TV. But have read a bit.

I predict that those Christians who considered this question carefully would all say "no", but give a wide range of justifications depending on their theology. Most comments here touch on pieces of this so I'll just reword below:

C. S. Lewis would have been appalled, first of all, not the least because the Crucifixion is the pivotal event for the whole mythic structure of Christianity. He would have found it a much less interesting story if Jesus had merely died in his old age. The story has a lot more dramatic power (and gains a wider following) if the protagonist is executed in a particularly cruel way by the absolute temporal power (the Romans), and then comes back. The message is then clear that not only do the Romans not have the moral high ground, but their power on earth is also threatened; this message ( ... )

Re: hm! redmomoko July 9 2010, 01:24:19 UTC

I don't mind revisiting an old question ( ... )

Re: hm! amnesiadust July 9 2010, 02:27:33 UTC

Ah, I see. Given your replies, I think I misunderstood the original thrust of your question.

I acknowledge that my response was what I believe Jesus's followers would say about the necessity of His death, and how they interpret it -- not necessarily what Jesus himself might have thought (modulo words that are attributed to him in the Gospels). C. S. Lewis converted mainly because of the mythic power of the Passion and Resurrection, not necessarily because he believed Jesus's ethical teachings were best or unique -- Lewis himself says that e.g. the Golden Rule is universal and therefore banal, without giving it its due, compared to the glory of the Resurrection.

Jesus's first-hand experience is a very different kind of question, but one which the structure of Christianity as it is practiced makes almost impossible to ask. Alan Watts was the only theologian I've read who was so audacious as to ask what it was like to be Jesus, not just one of his followers... and his personal beliefs were more a Buddhist/Taoist syncretism (like ( ... )