Color & Druids

[rob_donoghue]

Ok, so 4e has a disconnect between the description of what a power does and it's mechanical effect, and universally the description (also called color) carries pretty much no weight. As an example, imagine an attack which is described as leaping high into the air and coming down on your enemy to do some damage. If you were faced with an obstacle

Comments

[rob_donoghue]

And that's the interesting rub. I have considered making the whole game more explicitly color slanted, and in that world, this wrks out fine, but I have not yet opened that door for fear it only opens one way.

4E is the first game in a very long time where I'm willing to go all mechanics all the time because, while it is not normal for me, they seem to do it well, and extendign them the benefit of the doubt in this has reaped reasonable rewards of fun. When I reach th epoint where I truly set that aside, I probably set the whole game aside, because without that, it does nto necessarily stand that well.

[wyldelf]

Of course there's nothing stopping the social rules - I found myself bounded by them when considering what I could shapeshift into. The description of what you could change into (roughly your size, your movement limitations) did proscribe turning flounders that could not swim (or those that could) in the way I interpreted it. It certainly stopped me from creating my pirate captain that could turn into a shark, anyway. While I could have made a land-walking, non-swimming shark form, I felt a barrier was there and went for something more fitting. But if your experience was like mine, that's not the primary issue

[rob_donoghue]

There's an interesting assumption in there which reflects something I read differently. The power says your movement won't change, but I did nt read that as a limit to forms which would have similar movement, I read it as "You can become a hawk, but if you do you can't fly". The other reading had not occurred to me until I read this, and it may well be correct, but the text provides no further clarity.

That said, I think you speak to the thing I want to see - I like limitations. The "Things a polar bear can do" are more interesting for me to explore (mechanically) than "All the things anything might be able to do ever" and if I end up drilling into shapeshifting, that's the sort of route I'm likely to pursue.

[wyldelf]

I also got the sense from the builds of a form limitation, which I think helped feed my initial assumption. I was a guardian, so a polar bear seemed like a good fit. If I had gone predator... well, I probably would have gone with a land-walking, non-swimming shark actually.

Thinking of how to explore various shapes with more limited forms in mind makes me realize there's a load of potential in not just more paragon classes (where you could probably make one for each animal type if you wanted) but also more build options. That would be a great supplement, and I hope Primal Power taps into some of it.

[evilmagnus]

I like the approach of saying, "It's taken you a lifetime to get comfortable moving and fighting in your skin. What makes you think you can change into a (convincing) wolf and be effective?"

...and that's where the additional SS abilities kick in. Sure, your standard Lvl 1 Druid (or whatever) can shape-shift into a big dog, but can't do much more than, say, walk slowly and slobber. Heck, even eating would be a problem. Unless you get additional abilities like, "Can move comfortably as a quadruped".

I know that's not D&D specific, but it seems like a good way to explain the 4e mechanical impact (or lack thereof) of basic shape shifting.

[rhyslin]

From the outside looking in (I don't know anything about D&D 4e), it sounds like perhaps they tried to copy Champions' power system, but didn't do as good of a job. Or, perhaps there are different ways to model the powers you describe in 4e.

So, the "leap and attack" in Champions is really just a Superleap power (pure movement), but in that system, you can do a "half-move and attack" in a phase, so it works pretty much logically whether one is attacking, or just jumping over a wall (though, you can jump a lot further if you're not fighting).

And in Champions, there's a difference between shapeshift without altering your abilities, and having a multiform where each form has a totally separate sheet (which is generally more expensive).

[greyorm]

Hrm, well, it seems to me that this isn't weird at all. It's only weird because you're used to changing shape being able to grant you extra abilities--the powers being inherent to the form--rather than just changing shape

[peskara]

The power is balanced precisely because you can do weird things with it, but you can't do crazy things for free with it.This is my feeling on it as well