I have experienced it over and over from both ends. The problem is that it doesn't apply to the situations it should and is used as a club where it is inappropriate.
Stepping back, shouldn't it be someone's right to hire whomever they want? Shouldn't they be allowed to think, feel and say whatever they want? The problem with the racism debate is that presumes to tell people how they should think and that is just as wrong as being a bigoted idiot.
If we are going to talk about, we need to let go of the idea that there is a single way to to view the issue, otherwise it is simply a lecture rather than a conversation.
Re: TiresomesarahmichiganAugust 7 2007, 18:18:15 UTC
Stepping back, shouldn't it be someone's right to hire whomever they want? maybe, maybe not, but thinking/feeling is different than doing. I think that racist employers are probably shooting their own feet by not hiring diversely, but we do have workplace discrimination laws in place for a reason.
I'm really uncomfortable with just about everything you've ever said about racism (and much about feminism) on my LJ and hope that nobody thinks that I agree with you just because you're on my friends list.
Re: Tiresomepurple_marfAugust 7 2007, 19:15:24 UTC
I agree with your point about it needing to be a conversation rather than a lecture, but there's a difference between debate and argumentativeness. Aside from the fact that a government cannot by looking the other way condone racist hiring/firing policies - the idealogical value of your points hold up a lot better in the free market (freedom to be an idiot and hurt your own business) than they do, say, for universities
( ... )
I think making fine adjustment to a wristwatch with a meat axe is poor policy but that is the only implement government intervention has.
As far as GPA goes, it isn't really relevant anymore. I used to work in admissions in 2 different universities and I had more than a few applications come in with 3.9 GPAs that were filled out at sub-literate level. Clearly, this kid will get in and just as clearly, will get destroyed by the standards of the school. As such, I don't think GPA are a means of comparison.
As far as the rest of it goes, its the same problem I had mentioned before. Skewing the field to favor one group does a disservice to all the people who wind up playing.
It occurs to me that if I keep writing on this, I am simply going to get myself in more trouble.
So...
We disagree. I don't believe anything is made fair by making it unequal in someone's favor. I think doing so robs people of the ability to accomplish and the dignity of competing as an equal.
Re: TiresomesarahmichiganAugust 7 2007, 19:42:58 UTC
Personally, I can deal with the libertarian argument against AA that "discrimination is discrimination, so don't do it." I can accept that perhaps AA is not the best instrument to deal with a real problem.
I don't agree with the position that there isn't a problem in need of fixing or that situations in the workplace and education aren't still skewed against most racial minorities, though.
In that respect, we actually agree. AA is a bad idea.
I didn't say there isn't a problem. I think that problems that currently exist are better dealt with on a case by case basis rather than trying to legislate a belief system. Real problems still exist but I don't think the currently policies address it appropriately nor do I think that they really can address it appropriately.
You know, I find myself unable to pursue this argument simply because the entire subject is taboo. That's a shame because it hurts everyone because no real answers are forthcoming.
Naah, that's not really true. You're just pursuing a line of argument that some people find highly objectionable. That's not the same thing as a subject being taboo
( ... )
A taboo is a subject that carries penalty simply for being questioned. I think it fits in this case.
I don't think you can change people by simply stating this is the way it will be and hoping. I think while the laws has some impact, it isn't the best way to address the situation simply because it does nothing to alleviate the problem. If a person is given a job, it is assumed they are competent. If someone is given a job for a reason that might be something other other than competence, they will be held to a higher standard of performance than someone who qualified on their own merit. This goes for minorities as well as nepotism. In trying to create equality, they simply created a new problem.
I don't think the answer is a reallocation of privilege. I think the answer is everyone faces the same standard and preforms according to their ability.
There is a longer conversation here but I am not really interested in pursuing it simply because I don't think it will accomplish anything.
I do agree with some of what you are saying. Particularly, I don't think that legislation could ever be enough on its own.
But, "I think the answer is everyone faces the same standard and [performs] according to their ability."Given that studies have repeatedly shown that America still viciously discriminates against darker-skinned peoples; and given that people show no propensity to change that discrimination in the absence of strong social forces, including-but-not-limited-to-legislation, how do you recommend that change be brought about
( ... )
I would note also, though, that I am suspicious of personal experience. It's important, but it needs to be checked and validated against objective fact wherever possible.
I wouldn't want to assume, but I am curious as to what research supports the positions you have voiced thus far; and I remain curious as to what solutions you propose to the problem of American Racism, if indeed you have any solutions...
Re: TiresomesarahmichiganAugust 8 2007, 18:29:28 UTC
I also think you're running into liberal vs. libertarian assumptions about the role of government. I do have some libertarian ideals around free speech and a free press and so on, but I'm firmly in the liberal camp in believing that the government can do some good, in terms of social engineering and other issues.
Stepping back, shouldn't it be someone's right to hire whomever they want? Shouldn't they be allowed to think, feel and say whatever they want? The problem with the racism debate is that presumes to tell people how they should think and that is just as wrong as being a bigoted idiot.
If we are going to talk about, we need to let go of the idea that there is a single way to to view the issue, otherwise it is simply a lecture rather than a conversation.
Reply
maybe, maybe not, but thinking/feeling is different than doing. I think that racist employers are probably shooting their own feet by not hiring diversely, but we do have workplace discrimination laws in place for a reason.
I'm really uncomfortable with just about everything you've ever said about racism (and much about feminism) on my LJ and hope that nobody thinks that I agree with you just because you're on my friends list.
Reply
Reply
Reply
As far as GPA goes, it isn't really relevant anymore. I used to work in admissions in 2 different universities and I had more than a few applications come in with 3.9 GPAs that were filled out at sub-literate level. Clearly, this kid will get in and just as clearly, will get destroyed by the standards of the school. As such, I don't think GPA are a means of comparison.
As far as the rest of it goes, its the same problem I had mentioned before. Skewing the field to favor one group does a disservice to all the people who wind up playing.
It occurs to me that if I keep writing on this, I am simply going to get myself in more trouble.
So...
We disagree. I don't believe anything is made fair by making it unequal in someone's favor. I think doing so robs people of the ability to accomplish and the dignity of competing as an equal.
Reply
I don't agree with the position that there isn't a problem in need of fixing or that situations in the workplace and education aren't still skewed against most racial minorities, though.
Reply
I didn't say there isn't a problem. I think that problems that currently exist are better dealt with on a case by case basis rather than trying to legislate a belief system. Real problems still exist but I don't think the currently policies address it appropriately nor do I think that they really can address it appropriately.
Reply
It just seems less terrible (even if only marginally) than any of the alternatives.
Reply
Reply
Reply
I don't think you can change people by simply stating this is the way it will be and hoping. I think while the laws has some impact, it isn't the best way to address the situation simply because it does nothing to alleviate the problem. If a person is given a job, it is assumed they are competent. If someone is given a job for a reason that might be something other other than competence, they will be held to a higher standard of performance than someone who qualified on their own merit. This goes for minorities as well as nepotism. In trying to create equality, they simply created a new problem.
I don't think the answer is a reallocation of privilege. I think the answer is everyone faces the same standard and preforms according to their ability.
There is a longer conversation here but I am not really interested in pursuing it simply because I don't think it will accomplish anything.
Reply
But,
"I think the answer is everyone faces the same standard and [performs] according to their ability."Given that studies have repeatedly shown that America still viciously discriminates against darker-skinned peoples; and given that people show no propensity to change that discrimination in the absence of strong social forces, including-but-not-limited-to-legislation, how do you recommend that change be brought about ( ... )
Reply
Reply
I would note also, though, that I am suspicious of personal experience. It's important, but it needs to be checked and validated against objective fact wherever possible.
I wouldn't want to assume, but I am curious as to what research supports the positions you have voiced thus far; and I remain curious as to what solutions you propose to the problem of American Racism, if indeed you have any solutions...
adrian
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