Wow. I have to admit I had not realized this particular level of silence about Dean was such a huge discrepancy between him vs every single other member of TFW. I knew that Sam got the lion's share of behind-the-back conversations, because, well, it's Friday, so something must be wrong with Sam. It is interesting to contemplate the imbalance of presentation. Because, as you fairly point out, the writers don't do this because they don't love Dean, ie allow the other characters to love Dean:
All of the other TFW members love Dean best; they've all said as much except for Sam, for whom it goes without saying, I think. The love goes without saying. It's beautiful and ever-present; it can be breathtakingly sad and refreshingly joyful and sometimes hilarious. It doesn't need to be spelled out; it's the kind of subtext that is so omnipresent and vital that it is like the very air they breathe. Maybe you don't always see it, but it's there. They live on it
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Yes, I think that distinction is very important (and I'm afraid I didn't make it totally clear the first time around, hence my addendum): it's not that Dean isn't loved; it's just that the writing seems more interested in exploring his relationships with/through the other team members than the other way around.
In one way, I'm happy for it? We get a very intimate, three-dimensional understanding of Dean. But in another way, I miss that same intimate, three-dimensional understanding of, say, Sam. You know?
They also know he just keeps on trucking along, no matter bad his issues are. They know that he'll suck it up. That he'll get the job done, one way or another.I have to admit that this doesn't work for me? If only because that means it would mean that the characters writing (dictating) the scripts, and that's just something I resist in general. But also because we see him in crisis, and they are there with the opportunity and reason and concern to talk with one another about him... but they don't
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we see him in crisis, and they are there with the opportunity and reason and concern to talk with one another about him... but they don't.I often wonder how many well-intentioned details of a script hit the cutting floor, too, something I didn't mention above. I know I read an interview with Jared where he mentioned that he had been incorporating a lot of little moments earlier this season when Sam was reacting/trying to ignore Hallucifer's presence but that many of those moments didn't make the final cut because of time constraints
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Yeah, I think you're right about the cutting room floor. A little off on a tangent with that: I wish they would also tell their actors more than they apparently do, rather than just letting them read the script for one episode after the previous one is finished, because it messes the internal consistency of those little character moments that do end up on screen. I don't know if they just really don't have it planned out very well, or if they just don't want to share it with the actors to avoid "leaks" or something, but for example, Soulless Sam. Jared did great with Soulless Sam in all of his incarnations, but there were little notes that didn't make sense anymore if Soulless Sam was supposed to be incapable of feeling, etc. Well, then that whole plot was horribly inconsistent in my opinion, but just to point out for the acting aspect that I wish they had told him what exactly it meant within the show's reality for Sam to be Soulless, so he would have been able to tie it all together. It's kind of like JDM's expression when John told
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Absolutely stunning analysis here - I do love a meta with good evidence and pie charts!
My theory on what your present, is, as you allude to do with the construction of the narrative. I have always seen SPN as Sam's story, told from Dean's POV. Now it's not obviously only this, but I think its the overall approach, which does explain why the focus appears to bve on Sam - but at the same time theres a lot more we know about dean (tastes in music, film/tv, food, women etc).
Your post made me laugh (pie charts!!) and it made me cry (well, almost. The (nearly) crying part was this There’s only, what? Depression, alcoholism, grief, exhaustion, anger, betrayal. These basic human things that are wrong with him-and have been for long before TFW was born. So so sad, but true!)
It had never occured to me to look at TFW from this aspect. And you know, people wonder where Dean's low self-worth comes from... (and him being the one to actually invent TFW!!)
I immediately thought of that scene in 7.09. But when I re-watched it, the first thing I remembered was how pissed off I was at the time that while it started out to be about Dean (finally! Sam showing concern for Dean!!) it ended up (of course) being about Sam. :( And the "talk" about Dean actually only lasted just UNDER 40 SECONDS!!!
I think maybe lots of people feel this imbalance, even without being aware of it. And they are not happy with it, hence a Dean-centric comm like hoodie_time with 1367 watchers and 34,391 comments as opposed to its "sister" comm
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Well, I disagree that Dean not being talked about on screen is part of why he has low self-esteem. We know that they do talk about him, because Sam and sometimes Bobby or Cas will mention it. I just wish we could see those conversations sometimes, rather than always being told about them.
I do love fic from Sam's point of view in which Dean is in crisis, if only because it's such a rarity on the show. (I love all of those episodes, too, like "Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things," "Mystery Spot," and "The Slice Girls," etc...) Definitely a kink of mine.
"I think maybe lots of people feel this imbalance, even without being aware of it. And they are not happy with it, hence a Dean-centric comm like hoodie_time with 1367 watchers and 34,391 comments as opposed to its "sister" comm ohsam with 886 watchers and 10,451 comments! I think there is a huge need for this balance to be resettled. Seeing as this doesn't happen on show, people take it in their own hands! And rightly so, there is so much Sam-worry on show that Dean needs all the loving fanfic he can get! "
This is so spot on...and I am one of them. I am a HurtDean addict, and my favourites are always the ones where TFW rally around to help, protect, save Dean. It's not even the affliction that Dean has...it's the help he gets from all the others that has me reading. It's glorious to imagine the three of them..Bobby, Cas and Sam all joining forces to protect and help Dean....I can never understand why it isn't canon more often.
Could you maybe point me to some fic where TFW actually provides comfort to Dean? Cause for all I keep looking, it's usually just Sam, or Cas, or (usually in a wee!chester setting) Bobby. But the lot of them together? I don't think I actually ever came across one...
So if you have a list or something I'd greatly appreciate it!
I have my own theory to explain this imbalance. You see, if members of TFW discuss another member that member can't actually be in the scene, right? And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. And just by being in any given scene he makes that scene so much more than just the lines he has to say. I think it's the eyes. Or, you know, all his expressions. I am not fangirling here (trying not to, anyway), but in my opinion JA can convey just with a look more than JP with all his stomping about, flailing arms and his famous puppy-dog eyes. It's a true fact that Dean's role wasn't meant to be as major as it turned out. (Aside: did you know that Mark Pellegrino auditioned for Cas? Imagine!!)
So, the more talk about Dean, the less actual Dean. The more Dean talking about others the more Dean. And you know what? On show I'd rather have a scene with Dean and Bobby takling about Sam (cause then we get worried,
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I disagree because it still keeps him in supporting character hell and it's a disrespect to that character to NOT have him spoken of. It actually makes me hate the other characters after a while because Dean gives and gives and gives to them and he gets so little in return and most of what he gets is negative, with them complaining about him or putting him down
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Well, show is what it is and I can't make it myself to be the way I'd like. So I try to focus on what I like instead of what I don't like. That's just how I deal. If I was that unhappy with it overall I'd just stop watching.
Besides, even if all the other TFW members talk less about Dean it's still a long way from making Dean a supporting character. Is what I think.
Actually, I suppose if you take it literally, Dean really is a supporting character in the way that he provides support for everyone else. ^^
And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. I have never seen an article where Kripke said this was the way the series was planned. Where did you get this idea?
And don't forget Jensen originally auditioned for Sam.
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*gazes with sparkly fangirl eyes*
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All of the other TFW members love Dean best; they've all said as much except for Sam, for whom it goes without saying, I think. The love goes without saying. It's beautiful and ever-present; it can be breathtakingly sad and refreshingly joyful and sometimes hilarious. It doesn't need to be spelled out; it's the kind of subtext that is so omnipresent and vital that it is like the very air they breathe. Maybe you don't always see it, but it's there. They live on it ( ... )
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In one way, I'm happy for it? We get a very intimate, three-dimensional understanding of Dean. But in another way, I miss that same intimate, three-dimensional understanding of, say, Sam. You know?
They also know he just keeps on trucking along, no matter bad his issues are. They know that he'll suck it up. That he'll get the job done, one way or another.I have to admit that this doesn't work for me? If only because that means it would mean that the characters writing (dictating) the scripts, and that's just something I resist in general. But also because we see him in crisis, and they are there with the opportunity and reason and concern to talk with one another about him... but they don't ( ... )
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My theory on what your present, is, as you allude to do with the construction of the narrative. I have always seen SPN as Sam's story, told from Dean's POV. Now it's not obviously only this, but I think its the overall approach, which does explain why the focus appears to bve on Sam - but at the same time theres a lot more we know about dean (tastes in music, film/tv, food, women etc).
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But seriously if after 7 seasons you still think Dean is not a main character I don't know what i can say to you! *hands*
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It had never occured to me to look at TFW from this aspect. And you know, people wonder where Dean's low self-worth comes from... (and him being the one to actually invent TFW!!)
I immediately thought of that scene in 7.09. But when I re-watched it, the first thing I remembered was how pissed off I was at the time that while it started out to be about Dean (finally! Sam showing concern for Dean!!) it ended up (of course) being about Sam. :( And the "talk" about Dean actually only lasted just UNDER 40 SECONDS!!!
I think maybe lots of people feel this imbalance, even without being aware of it. And they are not happy with it, hence a Dean-centric comm like hoodie_time with 1367 watchers and 34,391 comments as opposed to its "sister" comm ( ... )
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I do love fic from Sam's point of view in which Dean is in crisis, if only because it's such a rarity on the show. (I love all of those episodes, too, like "Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things," "Mystery Spot," and "The Slice Girls," etc...) Definitely a kink of mine.
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This is so spot on...and I am one of them. I am a HurtDean addict, and my favourites are always the ones where TFW rally around to help, protect, save Dean. It's not even the affliction that Dean has...it's the help he gets from all the others that has me reading. It's glorious to imagine the three of them..Bobby, Cas and Sam all joining forces to protect and help Dean....I can never understand why it isn't canon more often.
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So if you have a list or something I'd greatly appreciate it!
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I have my own theory to explain this imbalance. You see, if members of TFW discuss another member that member can't actually be in the scene, right? And originally, the way Kripke had planned it, SPN was supposed to be about Sam Winchester and his brother, the supporting character. But then Jensen Ackles happened. And just by being in any given scene he makes that scene so much more than just the lines he has to say. I think it's the eyes. Or, you know, all his expressions. I am not fangirling here (trying not to, anyway), but in my opinion JA can convey just with a look more than JP with all his stomping about, flailing arms and his famous puppy-dog eyes. It's a true fact that Dean's role wasn't meant to be as major as it turned out. (Aside: did you know that Mark Pellegrino auditioned for Cas? Imagine!!)
So, the more talk about Dean, the less actual Dean. The more Dean talking about others the more Dean. And you know what? On show I'd rather have a scene with Dean and Bobby takling about Sam (cause then we get worried, ( ... )
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Besides, even if all the other TFW members talk less about Dean it's still a long way from making Dean a supporting character. Is what I think.
Actually, I suppose if you take it literally, Dean really is a supporting character in the way that he provides support for everyone else. ^^
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And don't forget Jensen originally auditioned for Sam.
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